Where do they lean?

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Brian
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:37 pm

Where do they lean?

#1

Post by Brian » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:49 pm

Good Evening friends. Infrequent poster but I was in a conversation with a friend and the topic made me think of this bunch as they know this type of stuff and live to make fun of it.

The topic was around Soverign Citizens and 1st Amendment Auditors. Do they lean to a particular side of the politicial spectrum? I’m sure not all do but I figured if anyone had this pegged in any way it would be this bunch.

No judgements no matter the space. It’s just a question I had never considered as I have always been more interested in the legal arguments presented than the space they were coming from so when I was asked I was stumped.

Thanks



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Dan1100
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Re: Where do they lean?

#2

Post by Dan1100 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:40 pm

Sovereign Citizens come from the White Supremacist/Christian Identity Posse Comitatus movement and William Gale. They are decidedly libertarian, gun loving, christian identity right-wing assholes. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Com ... anization)

I am more charitable toward the First Amendment Auditors than most here. For one thing, they tend to win their court cases and although they are obnoxious pains in the ass, they are also the reason it is settled law everywhere that you are allowed to film the cops. Lots of activists are obnoxious schmucks, but that doesn't make them wrong. Hard to say definitively left or right wing, but those that haven't been co-opted by the sovereign citizens goofs tend to be anti-police from a position of middle class white privilege more than anything else.


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RTH10260
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Re: Where do they lean?

#3

Post by RTH10260 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:48 pm

Brian wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:49 pm
Good Evening friends. Infrequent poster but I was in a conversation with a friend and the topic made me think of this bunch as they know this type of stuff and live to make fun of it.

The topic was around Soverign Citizens and 1st Amendment Auditors. Do they lean to a particular side of the politicial spectrum? I’m sure not all do but I figured if anyone had this pegged in any way it would be this bunch.

No judgements no matter the space. It’s just a question I had never considered as I have always been more interested in the legal arguments presented than the space they were coming from so when I was asked I was stumped.

Thanks
Two distinct groups with no overlap. IMHO Sovereign Citizens tend to be unhinged far right wing. 1st Amendment crusaders I would describe as patriotic, not RW Patriots, generally political center, leaning more to the right. Many of them are also 2nd Amendment followers especially when it comes to open carry. While SovCits are generally anti-government the 1st Amend folowers are for proper appplication of the laws and anti-corruption in law enforcment.

YMMV

PS. an outsiders view after following some 1st Amend'ers for several months on Youtube.



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Mikedunford
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Re: Where do they lean?

#4

Post by Mikedunford » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:53 pm

Brian wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:49 pm
Good Evening friends. Infrequent poster but I was in a conversation with a friend and the topic made me think of this bunch as they know this type of stuff and live to make fun of it.

The topic was around Soverign Citizens and 1st Amendment Auditors. Do they lean to a particular side of the politicial spectrum? I’m sure not all do but I figured if anyone had this pegged in any way it would be this bunch.

No judgements no matter the space. It’s just a question I had never considered as I have always been more interested in the legal arguments presented than the space they were coming from so when I was asked I was stumped.

Thanks
First Amendment auditors, as others have said, are different from SovCits. They tend to be (IMO) broadly libertarian, and most are probably more toward the right-libertarian side of the spectrum, but there are probably a fair number of left-libertarian types in their mix.

SovCits are even more complex. Quite a few are on the far-right side of the left-right spectrum, being (as Dan noted) offshoots of several right-wing movements. But there are others (Moorish nationals; some of the Hawaiian Independence Movement) who arrive at similar practical views from a different set of origins and might not be locatable on the left-right spectrum.

--
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boots
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Re: Where do they lean?

#5

Post by boots » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:15 pm

In Southern Cal there are plenty of left-leaning and historically left folks who have swallowed bits of sovcit legal mythology without knowing it.



Brian
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Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:37 pm

Re: Where do they lean?

#6

Post by Brian » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:26 pm

Thanks a lot. I knew you wouldn’t let me down. More info in a half a night than I could likely research in a week on my own.

We did think they were two separate groups and the 1st amendment auditors were more libertarian but had no idea about the sov cit group.

Nice to hear from you all.



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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Where do they lean?

#7

Post by Sam the Centipede » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:32 am

Brian wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:26 pm
We did think they were two separate groups and the 1st amendment auditors were more libertarian but had no idea about the sov cit group.
They have to be two separate groups. First Amendment auditors (regardless of any assholery) are about the correct application of their justifiable interpretation of law. They win cases in real courts with real law.

Sovereign citizens concoct their own fantasy law and sometimes their own fantasy courts but they lose all their cases in real courts when they try to apply their fantasy law.

The only ideological overlap I see is that both groups share an underlying attitude of "you're not the boss of me".

Others have addressed the left-right question. And, of course, many sovcits are also gun-humpers, especially the militia types, which might be deceptive.



Mr Brolin
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Re: Where do they lean?

#8

Post by Mr Brolin » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:08 am

At a VERY VERY broad brushstroke level the primary differentiator is rather less political and more degree of rationality and attitude to others as persons.

A 1st Amendment Auditor says "The laws as laid out by and associated legal processes derived from the actual Constitution need to be subordinate to the intent and wording of the actual Constitution and we will use all legal methods to promote and ensure there is adherence."

A SovCit says "I have my own personal view and personal interpretation of an imaginary Constitution and no laws derived from or words of the actual Constitution, that that contradict my view, are acceptable to me. I am very comfortable in using any immoral, unethical or illegal tactics to push and promote my personal view "

The second type regard Ayn Rand as a wimpy backslider and see themselves as Nietzschean Übermensch but of course whilst gorging on the teat of government and societal freebies and handouts and the sweat of society as a whole.



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