Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

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Just some guy
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Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#1

Post by Just some guy » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:53 pm

but what does everyone have to say about Garry Davis?

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#2

Post by ZekeB » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:57 pm

Gary Lewis? Didn't he record Wooden Heart?
Trump: Er hat eine größere Ente als ich.

Putin: Du bist kleiner als ich.

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Azastan
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#3

Post by Azastan » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:07 pm

I've heard he's an excellent attorney. Are you contemplating becoming a citizen?

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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#4

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:16 pm

He's dead Jim.

By the way, brilliant thread name. We all know instantly what this thread is about. Bravo.

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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#5

Post by Sam the Centipede » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:19 pm

Azastan wrote:I've heard he's an excellent attorney. Are you contemplating becoming a citizen?
Steady on! JSG needs to join our species first! He has been studying in his lair under a bridge, so he only needs to evolve for, oh, a couple million years and upgrade his IQ by ninety points.

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#6

Post by Plutodog » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:24 pm

Ex-visionary, was not on entirely healthy terms with reality. Still you are entirely and distinctly out of his former league, Guy. :fingerwag:
The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Just some guy
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#7

Post by Just some guy » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:19 am

How did a stateless man who renounced his us citizenship live and die in Vermont?

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Just some guy
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#8

Post by Just some guy » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:20 am

Azastan wrote:I've heard he's an excellent attorney. Are you contemplating becoming a citizen?
always been a citizen, never said I wasn't.

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#9

Post by boots » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:50 am

Azastan wrote:I've heard he's an excellent attorney. Are you contemplating becoming a citizen?
No, but his straw man fiction corporate entity is!

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Da Funky Maoist
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#10

Post by Da Funky Maoist » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:09 am

Just some guy wrote:How did a stateless man who renounced his us citizenship live and die in Vermont?
The Aristocrats?
"You liked Rashomon."
"That's not how I remember it."

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#11

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:39 am

I think JSG needs to discuss citizenship principles with a specialist lawyer who can explain all the complexities at length.

Mario Apuzzo isn't busy currently so I am sure he would be happy to debate these topics with JSG. Apuzzo is a renowned expert in his own mind on the complexities of citizenship, both constitutional and statute law issues.

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#12

Post by RoadScholar » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:50 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:He's dead Jim.

By the way, brilliant thread name. We all know instantly what this thread is about. Bravo.
What's it all about?

It's about this long
And about that wide
And it's about this country
About which we're singin' about...

"I was born an American
I was raised an American
And I'll die an American
In America..."
The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
X3

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#13

Post by RTH10260 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:22 am

Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed
A typical case of Totally Blind!

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Azastan
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#14

Post by Azastan » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:50 am

Just some guy wrote:
Azastan wrote:I've heard he's an excellent attorney. Are you contemplating becoming a citizen?
always been a citizen, never said I wasn't.
Garry Davis is an immigration attorney, so I thought you might be contemplating taking the plunge.

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#15

Post by rpenner » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:25 pm

Just some guy wrote:but what does everyone have to say about Garry Davis?
He tried to have it both ways and spent decades selling sham documents that very occasionally were mistaken for the real thing, complicating his own life and everyone around him. Why? Was it predicated on anything more than "You're not the boss of me?"

http://www.leagle.com/decision/19791659 ... ION,%20ETC.
The petitioner is a native of the United States and served as a bomber pilot during World War II. On May 25, 1948, he voluntarily signed an oath of renunciation of United States nationality at the American Embassy in Paris, France.
...
The petitioner contends that he never expatriated himself. He alleges that the statement of beliefs he filed with the United States Embassy creates sufficient ambiguity to preclude renunciation of citizenship. The petitioner secondly argues that renunciation of citizenship requires the acquisition of another nationality. Finally, the petitioner alleges that Article 13(2) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, providing that "everyone has the right . . . to return to his country," requires the INS to allow the petitioner to enter and remain in the United States without any immigration papers.

The Immigration and Naturalization Service argues that the petitioner is neither a citizen nor a national of the United States. He therefore qualifies only as an alien who must be excluded under 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(20). This statute requires exclusion if a person does not possess a "valid unexpired immigration visa." The court agrees with the INS and will order the dismissal of the habeas petition.
...
Because the petitioner has close relations in the United States who may apply on his behalf for a visa, the petitioner may remain in this country by merely assenting to permanent resident alien status.
...
This opinion fails to prevent the petitioner or any other person from continuing to work for world peace through the vehicle of world citizenship and world government. Any person who desires to pursue this goal while residing in the United States, however, must obey this nation's immigration and naturalization laws. We therefore only hold that if a person intentionally and voluntarily renounces United States citizenship, then such person must obtain proper visa certification to enter and remain in the United States.
h/t quant18 of Wikipedia

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#16

Post by Northland10 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:42 pm

Since I am rather certain I know where JSG is going with this, I will jump to the end and answer the real question.

Whether or not a citizen could renounce his citizenship, become stateless, and then still be allowed back into the US is a big nothing burger. Anybody in this country, minus official diplomats representing other countries, is under the full jurisdiction of the United States, and the state and community in which they reside or are temporarily within. Citizenship does not determine jurisdiction, it only provides membership in the community and certain privileges stemming from that membership.

Immigrants, whether documented or not, must follow all our laws, pay taxes and also receive certain protections while residing within our country's territory.

So, your eventual argument on whether somebody can be stateless and live here will have no benefit. The same laws remain regardless of citizenship.

PS. And in regards to your future argument that there are some laws specific to aliens or visitors, including those that do not require a visitor to follow certain laws, those were choices made by various governments and could be changed at any time. They are neither permanent nor absolute, but a temporary choice.

You're welcome.
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#17

Post by boots » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:51 pm

JSG doesn't have a point. His target, if any, is hazily defined through a fog of last night's Burgie beer and an overdose of Cheez-Wiz (have to account for the snacks). In fact, at this point, his brain is pretty much entirely composed of Burgie and Cheez-Wiz, those being the mainstays of his native diet. You are what you eat, etc., etc. As if he is the first person to lazily dream about there being no borders and no government. But such dreaming doesn't make it happen. Darn! Now he has to go pay his auto insurance to drive on them gubmint roads!

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Sterngard Friegen
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#18

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:21 pm

Maybe a mod could change the name of this thread to Garry Davis, stateless loser.

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#19

Post by Whatever4 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:36 pm

Or Just Another Thread from Just Some Guy
"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#20

Post by Dallasite » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:37 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:Maybe a mod could change the name of this thread to Garry Davis, stateless loser.
Or "Another Bullshit Topic Started By JSG"
"I drank what?!?!" - Soctates, 399 BC

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#21

Post by rpenner » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:56 pm

"Just some guy exploits corpse of stateless fantasist" and by "exploits" I originally thought of a stronger word that would probably shock even the FEMA Camps.

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#22

Post by Mikedunford » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:11 pm

Just some guy wrote:How did a stateless man who renounced his us citizenship live and die in Vermont?
It's a quiet weekend. I'll bite.

He formally renounced his citizenship, and that renunciation was ruled - over his later objection - to have been effective. In the real world, there are at least three possible explanations for his subsequent residence in Vermont:

1: The renunciation was subsequently held invalid. I don't see any evidence of that, but it's not impossible.
2: He was permitted to emigrate to the USA, and was here legally.
3: He was legally an undocumented immigrant, theoretically subject to apprehension and deportation at any time, but the authorities were utilizing their prosecutorial discretion and deliberately overlooking his presence.
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#23

Post by GlimDropper » Sat Sep 24, 2016 6:36 pm

Last February after the Bundy situation died down a bit word came out that rapper Mos Def was arrested in South Africa for trying to travel on one of Garry Davis' "World Passports," a brief thread about it over at the Q.

(Hint:it didn't go over so well for Mr. Def)

I spent a little time looking into Garry's "World Service Authority" and I don't believe it was started to be a scam. Garry Davis was an altruistic and idealistic man, if people could all travel freely the more people would see how arbitrary national boarders really are and start thinking as a citizen of the world and not just a member of a national "tribe."

On the other hand we are living in a post 911 world and Trump is blathering about building walls, the notion of mail order identity documents issued by a company doing nothing to verify your identity prior to selling you a "passport" is perhaps even less realistic now than it had been in Garry's lifetime. Today the "World Service Authority" still sells identity documents only now they can not realistically pretend not to know that the documents they sell are worthless for the purposes they are sold for. I honestly think a solid argument to be made that the WSA's sales pitch is fraudulent and theft by deception.

I'm just c/ping a post I made at the time on the thread linked above.

Minor Update and Bepuzzlement:
Mos Def in court to fight deportation from SA

By Naledi Shange | Feb 26, 2016

Mos Def and his family are still in the country after the court extended an interim order that stated that he and his family would not be deported pending his ongoing criminal case.

<Snip>

Mos Def, born Dante Terrell Smith, and now known as Yasiin Bey, was arrested last month after he tried to leave Cape Town with an unrecognised "world passport".

<Snip>

According to Bey, he had previously been able to enter and exit the country using the document.


From the Sowetan

That last claim has been denied however:
Mos Def did not enter SA with World Passport - Home Affairs

US musician and actor Mos Def, aka Yasiin Bey, never entered the country using a world passport, the Home Affairs Department said on Wednesday.

"He has entered South Africa 10 times, and has always entered the country on a visitor's visa [90 days exemption] using a US Passport, not a World Passport," director general Mkuseli Apleni told reporters in Pretoria.

<Snip>

"As you can see, the world passport is not recognised under Immigration Regulation 2 (4). Proper procedure was followed for his arrest. A warrant was obtained for his arrest. He faces charges of contravening the Immigration Act," said Apleni.

Bey was out on R5000 bail.


Earlier from the Sowetan

OK, on to my confusion, we've been looking at the World Service Authority threw the lens of sovcit scams like President Jimmy Tim's magic disappearing ID printing machine and as Burnaby pointed out in the OP some sovcits have as well but is that all it is? There might be some manner of idealism behind this separate from the "Give me money and I'll give you a laminated get out of jail free card with your picture on it." Maybe.

There's an upcoming movie in part on the life of Garry Davis, info can be found on this site. A nine minute clip from the film can be seen here. These days pretty much anyone can make their own film but not quite anyone can get Martin Sheen to do intros. In a post 911 world i don't think the idea of a mail order international identity document company holds the same appeal as it may once have but it seems to once have been a fairly principled effort, that video clip touches on part of the idea. Mos Def might not have been duped, he might in fact know what he's getting himself into in so far as trying to fight for recognition of this sort of documents. I don't think he can win but he seems to have the money to fund the battle.

Of course this is a post 911 world and one were some American presidential candidates score points with some part of the electorate for out xenophobing each other, Garry Davis' idealistic dream might be dead and buried (parts of it least wise). If the World Service Authority continues to accept money for documents they have no excuse not to know will not be accepted then they are moving into Jimmy Tim territory (if they haven't already). But I think it's interesting to note that at one point in time there was something like a noble idea behind it.

Edit to add a recent Vice dot com story link.

And from the New York Times:
“My country is the world,” David Gallup, the organization’s president and general counsel, said in a phone interview. “You have the right to travel through planet earth as a human being unless you want to harm someone.” The group offers examples of passport stamps of scores of governments as proof that it is a valid form of ID when traveling.

The United States and South Africa beg to differ.


Listening to David Gallup speak does not elevate my opinion of this deal [YouTube Link]. That was sort of a Q&A on using the World Passport and it comes bleedingly close to sounding like a "Right to Travel" video or some other sovereign hogwash. Gallup states you have a right to freely travel the world but sometimes government bureaucrats will chose not to recognize World Passports but he makes it sound like it's just them having a bad day. He knows full well that these things are only accepted more or less by accident but being honest about that would not be good for sales.

And,...money shot, the 35:10 point of the video linked above is where the wheels come off the wagon. I wont characterize it other than to say I now think that Garry Davis' dream is dead and his legacy has been co opted by a conman.

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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#24

Post by Suranis » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:38 pm

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015 ... t-back-in/
Bitcoin investor who renounced US citizenship now can’t get back in

A well-known entrepreneur, often dubbed "Bitcoin Jesus"—who famously renounced his American citizenship last year—was denied a visa on Tuesday to re-enter the United States to attend an upcoming Bitcoin conference in Miami.

According to Roger Ver’s tweets, it was his third attempt to re-enter in eight days. Ver, who on occasion wears a T-shirt that reads "borders are imaginary lines," lambasted consular officials at the US Embassy in Barbados, where he made his application.
In or out?

Ver has been a citizen of the Caribbean nation of St. Kitts and Nevis since February 2014. For the last 30 years, St. Kitts has offered citizenship through its "Citizenship by Investment" program.

That program, according to the government's official website, requires either:

an investment in designated real estate with a value of at least US$ 400,000 plus payment of various registration and other fees (the Real-Estate Option), or a contribution to the Sugar Industry Diversification Foundation (a public charity) to the amount of between US$ 250,000 and US$ 450,000, depending on the number of dependants included in the application (the SIDF Contribution Option)

Some wealthy American citizens renounce their passports as a way to avoid paying federal income taxes. The United States is fairly unique in that it requires all citizens, regardless of where they live or where else they hold citizenship, to pay federal income taxes.

On Wednesday, one immigration lawyer, Ashwin Sharma, wrote on his blog:

Interestingly, Mr. Ver was denied under Section 214(b) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) which states, “Every alien shall be presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction of the consular officer, at the time of application for admission, that he is entitled to a nonimmigrant status…” In short, this section of the INA presumes every applicant for a visa to America intends to eventually reside in America. It is the burden of each applicant to demonstrate that this is not the case…

...

It is strange then, to say the least, that Mr. Ver was denied by the U.S. Consular General, Barbados, under a regulation that requires he prove his intent to depart the U.S. when he appears to have already done so.
So yeah, the US can refuse people who had renounced their US citizenship, so saying "uh someone is stateless and yet is living in the US, so therefore citizenship is, like, false!" is obviously a fallacy.

Here is the thing. There is a procedure to renounce US citizenship. It involves leaving the territorial USA, then renouncing it, and then applying to come back in. Writing on the back of the envelope "I renounce US citizenship, drivers licences r treason" and bing. If the US decides not to let you in, then you are stuck outside the USA, vulnerable to the anal rape of socialism, death panels, and divorce decrees from your long suffering wife who has finally had enough of you being a fucking idiot.
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Re: Can not search topics so dont if this has been discussed

#25

Post by Chilidog » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:54 pm

Da Funky Maoist wrote:
Just some guy wrote:How did a stateless man who renounced his us citizenship live and die in Vermont?
The Aristocrats?
I heard a joke about them once...

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