Does a promissory note have

User avatar
Whatever4
Posts: 12288
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:36 am
Location: Mainely in the plain
Occupation: Visiting doctors.

Re: Does a promissory note have

#526

Post by Whatever4 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:22 am

Suranis wrote:
Whatever4 wrote:
Just some guy wrote: My god you people can not read, I said you could only be a citizen of a sovereign, like the us or a state, and that you could not be a citizen of CHICAGO.
e

But Merriam-Webster says:

Citizen-- 1 an inhabitant of a city or town; especially : one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman
But Blacks free online law dictionary says

http://thelawdictionary.org/citizen/
What is CITIZEN?

In general, A member of a free city or jural society, (civitas.) possessing all the rights and privileges which can be enjoyed by any person under its constitution and government, and subject to the corresponding duties.

Law Dictionary: What is CITIZEN? definition of CITIZEN (Black's Law Dictionary)
Ha! Bet you feel foolish now, obot!!!
Back off, MouseMan, I know where you live. :boxing:

Well, not exactly... More of sort of know where you are domiciled in a general sense... Plus you are like a foot taller than I am. :bighug:


"[Moderate] doesn't mean you don't have views. It just means your views aren't predictable ideologically one way or the other, and you're trying to follow the facts where they lead and reach your own conclusions."
-- Sen. King (I-ME)

User avatar
Mikedunford
Posts: 10461
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#527

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:58 am

Suranis wrote:Citizens comittee for new York city http://www.citizensnyc.org/
Off Topic
An organization I knew very well once - my mother used to work for them, and I volunteered there when I was a teenager.


"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

User avatar
Mikedunford
Posts: 10461
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#528

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:47 am

Just some guy wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:
Just some guy wrote:
Oh did I do that?

(c) "Originator" means the sender of the first payment order in a funds transfer.

(d) The term "sender" in this Article includes the customer in whose name a payment order is issued

(3) "Customer" means a person, including a bank, having an account with a bank or from whom a bank has agreed to receive payment orders.
You skipped steps. First, as I already mentioned, you haven't shown that there are no relevant Federal Reserve regulations/circulars that might conflict with the UCC, nor have you shown that there are no other federal laws that might conflict in this particular case. Second, you haven't shown that the funds transfer qualifies as a "payment order" - a term which is also defined in 4A, and in a way that I think might be problematic for you.

Fill in those blanks and come back. Once you've done that, we can move on to some of the many other massive problems in your argument.

That is because I am not the one suggesting there might be, you are the suggesting there might be flyers that contradict my position, but have yet to show any.

The funds transfer is not the payment order, the payment order is me telling the bank that I wont to buy his house, so make the check out to him.

(1) "Payment order" means an instruction of a sender to a receiving bank, transmitted orally, electronically, or in writing, to pay, or to cause another bank to pay, a fixed or determinable amount of money to a beneficiary if:

(i) the instruction does not state a condition to payment to the beneficiary other than time of payment,

(ii) the receiving bank is to be reimbursed by debiting an account of, or otherwise receiving payment from, the sender, and

(iii) the instruction is transmitted by the sender directly to the receiving bank or to an agent, funds-transfer system, or communication system for transmittal to the receiving bank.


Unless of course you are saying the bank decides what house I want to buy and who I want to pay?
You are the one who is (apparently) asserting that the transaction falls under UCC 4A. It's up to you to convince me that you are correct in your assertion, and part of that is explaining why the transaction would fall under the UCC. Setting that particular failure aside:

Read the "payment order" definition more carefully - the payment order cannot have conditions to payment other than the time of payment. That's not going to cover the mortgage closing process, which has so many conditions that escrow agents are generally used to hold funds until all conditions have been fulfilled.

Now look at §4A-104 again: "Funds transfer" means the series of transactions, beginning with the originator's payment order, made for the purpose of making payment to the beneficiary of the order...."

The "funds transfer" under UCC Article 4A has to start with a payment order, and that payment order has to meet the definitions in §4A-103. Where's that payment order in your scenario?


"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

User avatar
Mikedunford
Posts: 10461
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#529

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:00 am

Just some guy wrote: 1. citizen of the united states means a citizen of the federal government does it not?

A citizen
of the United States is a citizen of the Federal Government
[Kitchens v. Steele, 112 F.Supp. 383 (USDC/WDMO 1953)]
:snippity: :snippity:

This kind of nonsense is why you need to learn to read cases - if, that is, you have any desire whatsoever to stop making an ass of yourself in public. Not every word of every case is equally significant. A quote from a case has a great deal of weight where it is a holding. Obiter dicta carries some weight, but not as much as a holding. The quote from Kitchens, IMO, is neither a holding nor dicta. It's what I'd call "incidental language" - it was a broad statement that was made to provide general context for the discussion of the law that followed. It was the subject of no legal analysis, and had virtually nothing to do with the outcome of the case. It was just something the judge said.


"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

User avatar
Mikedunford
Posts: 10461
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#530

Post by Mikedunford » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:27 am



"I don't give a fuck whether we're peers or not."
--Lord Thomas Henry Bingham to Boris Johnson, on being asked whether he would miss being in "the best club in London" if the Law Lords moved from Parliament to a Supreme Court.

User avatar
Northland10
Posts: 8582
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:19 am
Location: Chicago area - North burbs

Re: Does a promissory note have

#531

Post by Northland10 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:41 am

Mikedunford wrote:This kind of nonsense is why you need to learn to read cases - if, that is, you have any desire whatsoever to stop making an ass of yourself in public.
Research and reading are really not his strong point. Research to him is cut and pasting stuff that he thinks tells him what he wants to hear. If he did do research, he may have realized that jumping to the topic of citizenship may not have been the best choice on this board. A cursory look around here might cause some people to realize that we have a tad bit more experience in the citizenship area.

JSG probably walks into a convention on brain surgeons and tells them how they are all wrong.


North-land: of the family 10

UCC 1-106 Plural is Singular, Singular is Plural.

User avatar
realist
Posts: 34969
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:33 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#532

Post by realist » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:11 am

I'd just kinda been following along in this promissory note discussion and mostly shaking my head, then this morning find out JSG is now also a constitutional expert. Then I begin seeing a lot of the same bullshit birther quotes and cases quote mined, most of which are the same BS that birthers used for the last 8 years and started doing face palms, then the sov cit nonsense showed up in full force.

THEN I see the question posed by JSG were women citizens prior to the 14th Amendment and it was banging head in the desk time.

I have neither the patience nor desire to go through all that ridiculous birther/sov cit crap again and certainly have no idea what it has to do with does a promissory note have value, or whatever the original argument was. Actually that was hard to decipher as well, and still is.

So I say to you who plan to continue with JSG's nonsense good luck with your re-birther and sov cit education that JSG will impart, genius that he's revealed himself to be.


ImageX 4 ImageX36
Image

User avatar
ZekeB
Posts: 16164
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:07 pm
Location: Northwest part of Semi Blue State

Re: Does a promissory note have

#533

Post by ZekeB » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:20 am

You just stick to paying me in cash, JsG. Gold or silver certificates only, please. I wouldn't expect that you'd be interested in a car or home loan anyway. Oh yes, when you pay your taxes, please pay in person with cash only. General Lee was required to do the same.


Trump: Er hat eine größere Ente als ich.

Putin: Du bist kleiner als ich.

noblepa
Posts: 1080
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Bay Village, Ohio
Occupation: Network Engineer

Re: Does a promissory note have

#534

Post by noblepa » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:17 am

Just some guy wrote:
Northland10 wrote:
Just some guy wrote:
Are you saying that the states were federal territory?

If Ireland or Greece left the EU, would they still be part of the EU?
What does the EU have to do with anything. The union did not recognize the right of the states to separate themselves from the union and nullify the Constitution. The belief of the federal government and the states that did not secede was that the Constitution and the laws made therein did not provide a mechanism to leave the Constitution union.

It is about the US Constitution. What rules the EU has is up to the EU and their member states.
Who cares what the UNION recognized, the declaration makes it clear as day, when the government needs to be disbanded it will...end of story.

You know who else thought the colonies did not have the right to secede?

It did not provide a mechanism because one is not needed, did England provide a mechanism for us to leave them?


How about you show me in the constitution were it says the states can not leave the union?
I assume you are referring to the Declaration of Independence.

Unfortunately for your arguement, the DOI is not a legal document. It is an extremely important historical document, but it has little or no value in court. You can not defend yourself in court by saying that your rights under the DOI have been violated. It is basically a propaganda piece, explaining to the American populace, why it was necessary to break the ties with England.

While the Constitution does not specifically say that states can not secede from the union, SCOTUS cases after the civil war ruled that, for legal purposes, the Confederate states had never left they union. They did not need to "rejoin" the union, as they never left it. They merely needed to lay down their arms and send elected representatives and senators to Washington to take their places in Congress. I am not a lawyer, so I can't quote the exact cases.

As for your questions about being a citizen of a state while also being a citizen of the US, you obviously don't understand one of the most fundamental principles of the US Constitution and history: dual sovereignty. We have a system, in which both the states and the Federal government are considered to be sovereign, which seems to be a contradiction. Besides, read the 14th Amendment. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside.". In my mind, it could not be clearer, that, since I was born in Akron, Ohio, I am a citizen of the US and of Ohio. When I lived in California for four years, I was a citizen of the US and a citizen of California.



noblepa
Posts: 1080
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:54 pm
Location: Bay Village, Ohio
Occupation: Network Engineer

Re: Does a promissory note have

#535

Post by noblepa » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:48 am

Just some guy wrote: Were women citizens after the 14th passed?
Yes, they were, even though they were not gven the right to vote until the 19th amendment.

See Minor v. Happersett. Ms. Minor was born in Missouri. In 1872, she attempted to register to vote, claiming that the 14th amendment's equal protection clause gave her that right. The county registrar, Mr. Happersett, refused. The Missouri Supreme Court decided in favor of Happersett. Minor appealed to SCOTUS.

In their ruling, the court explicitely stated that she was most definitely a citizen. However, the court then went on to explain in rather excrutiating detail that voting was not a right of citizenship, protected by the Constitution. That was in 1873. Since then, the 19th amendment was passed and other laws enacted that gave, for example, native Americans the right to vote. Today, we do consider voting to be a citizenship right, but if 1873, it was not.

So, yes, women were considered citizens after the 14th amendment. I'm pretty sure that they were even before the 14th.



User avatar
BillTheCat
Posts: 4496
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:25 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#536

Post by BillTheCat » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:22 pm

:shock: *peeks in*

22 pages on what amounts to be a discussion on IOU's that devolved into the usual dude questioning all things Citizen and Constitooshun related.. Wowzers.

Gotta give it up to our resident sovshits/birthers/loons, without them things just wouldn't be as interesting. Or funny. :lol:


'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.'
-Lewis Carroll

boots
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#537

Post by boots » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:33 pm

Mikedunford wrote: You are the one who is (apparently) asserting that the transaction falls under UCC 4A. It's up to you to convince me that you are correct in your assertion, and part of that is explaining why the transaction would fall under the UCC. Setting that particular failure aside:

Read the "payment order" definition more carefully - the payment order cannot have conditions to payment other than the time of payment. That's not going to cover the mortgage closing process, which has so many conditions that escrow agents are generally used to hold funds until all conditions have been fulfilled.

Now look at §4A-104 again: "Funds transfer" means the series of transactions, beginning with the originator's payment order, made for the purpose of making payment to the beneficiary of the order...."

The "funds transfer" under UCC Article 4A has to start with a payment order, and that payment order has to meet the definitions in §4A-103. Where's that payment order in your scenario?
Doncha know, in internet world, the UCC applies to everything and is some kind of supreme law with magical powers!



User avatar
rpenner
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: Silicon Valley, California
Contact:

Re: Does a promissory note have

#538

Post by rpenner » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:55 pm

Space magic from beyond the dawn of time, even. The UCC is what enables the Magna Carta to apply when it's been repealed in it's native country, a country which we rebelled from.



User avatar
Sterngard Friegen
Posts: 45274
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am
Location: Over the drawbridge

Re: Does a promissory note have

#539

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:15 pm

rpenner wrote:Space magic from beyond the dawn of time, even. The UCC is what enables the Magna Carta to apply when it's been repealed in it's native country, a country which we rebelled from.
Yabbut the Queen and the Pope signed my B.A.R. card. (Ooops. That may have been a secret. Forget that I wrote it.)



boots
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#540

Post by boots » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:27 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
rpenner wrote:Space magic from beyond the dawn of time, even. The UCC is what enables the Magna Carta to apply when it's been repealed in it's native country, a country which we rebelled from.
Yabbut the Queen and the Pope signed my B.A.R. card. (Ooops. That may have been a secret. Forget that I wrote it.)
Dammit, you let the cat out of the bag! I had someone once tell me I am a "secret agent of the British government" by having a Cal. law license. lulz. Someone who has a thread on this board, actually. I asked if that meant I could hang out with James Bond and that Goldmember guy from the Austin Powers movies. In response, I was told that my British agent status is something I should take seriously, and not a joking matter! Ah, delusions...



boots
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 5:23 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#541

Post by boots » Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:57 pm

P.K. wrote:"What paralegals do" is highly dependent on various factors: what field of law they are working in, what state they are working in, and what their employers (i.e. law firm) are willing to pay them to do. When I was a work-comp legal secretary, our paralegals mainly worked on lien resolution, i.e. bargaining down sleazy vendors (the work comp world is full of sleazy vendors, at least in my area). When I worked in the estate planning field, the paralegals' work was quite different, and when I worked in construction defect law, the paralegal's work was different still. So you can't say that paralegals always do legal research, or always handle the calendar, or always do any particular task, it depends on many factors. (But of course my many years of experience means nothing compared to something you read in some book, so never mind.)
I'm not quite sure how what paralegals do became a talking point of JSG. I guess it is along the lines of they're not lawyers so who cares if one is a lawyer, it's a meaningless credential. Or some similar reasoning.

In theory, in a law practice, anyone - a paralegal, a law clerk, a disbarred lawyer, or even a wino off the street - can draft a brief, do research, or do any number of things that lawyers normally do. A lawyer must however review and approve ever single aspect of that work. And if it is submitted to the court, the lawyer signs his name to it, making it his (or hers). This has the practical result of preventing persons not qualified from doing research, drafting, and other things better left to lawyers.

(And I'm not slighting paralegals or persons who didn't go to law school. Lawyers just process information differently, and that means they do work differently. The same goes for any other profession. I would be a terrible brain surgeon.)



User avatar
dunstvangeet
Posts: 505
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:53 am

Re: Does a promissory note have

#542

Post by dunstvangeet » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:10 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:
rpenner wrote:Space magic from beyond the dawn of time, even. The UCC is what enables the Magna Carta to apply when it's been repealed in it's native country, a country which we rebelled from.
Yabbut the Queen and the Pope signed my B.A.R. card. (Ooops. That may have been a secret. Forget that I wrote it.)
The question is which Queen Elizabeth signed it. I have it on good Authority that it was actually Queen Elizabeth I...

*ducks*



User avatar
Sterngard Friegen
Posts: 45274
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:32 am
Location: Over the drawbridge

Re: Does a promissory note have

#543

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:43 pm

dunstvangeet wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:
rpenner wrote:Space magic from beyond the dawn of time, even. The UCC is what enables the Magna Carta to apply when it's been repealed in it's native country, a country which we rebelled from.
Yabbut the Queen and the Pope signed my B.A.R. card. (Ooops. That may have been a secret. Forget that I wrote it.)
The question is which Queen Elizabeth signed it. I have it on good Authority that it was actually Queen Elizabeth I...

*ducks*
Along with Pope Gregory XIII.



User avatar
magdalen77
Posts: 5394
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:43 pm
Location: Down in the cellar

Re: Does a promissory note have

#544

Post by magdalen77 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:26 pm

Techno Luddite wrote:
P.K. wrote:"What paralegals do" is highly dependent on various factors: what field of law they are working in, what state they are working in, and what their employers (i.e. law firm) are willing to pay them to do. When I was a work-comp legal secretary, our paralegals mainly worked on lien resolution, i.e. bargaining down sleazy vendors (the work comp world is full of sleazy vendors, at least in my area). When I worked in the estate planning field, the paralegals' work was quite different, and when I worked in construction defect law, the paralegal's work was different still. So you can't say that paralegals always do legal research, or always handle the calendar, or always do any particular task, it depends on many factors. (But of course my many years of experience means nothing compared to something you read in some book, so never mind.)
I'm not quite sure how what paralegals do became a talking point of JSG. I guess it is along the lines of they're not lawyers so who cares if one is a lawyer, it's a meaningless credential. Or some similar reasoning.

In theory, in a law practice, anyone - a paralegal, a law clerk, a disbarred lawyer, or even a wino off the street - can draft a brief, do research, or do any number of things that lawyers normally do. A lawyer must however review and approve ever single aspect of that work. And if it is submitted to the court, the lawyer signs his name to it, making it his (or hers). This has the practical result of preventing persons not qualified from doing research, drafting, and other things better left to lawyers.

(And I'm not slighting paralegals or persons who didn't go to law school. Lawyers just process information differently, and that means they do work differently. The same goes for any other profession. I would be a terrible brain surgeon.)
That's pretty much my job. I draft up consent orders, consent assessments as well as unilateral orders and assessments. Then an attorney reviews them. Since I've been doing this for over 20 years they usually don't need to correct or change very much. As far as research, I might get an attorney asking me to research a person or a company on Lexis or on PACER, but they wouldn't ask me to interpret a law or regulation. Unless I was part of the group that helped write the regulation. Then they might consult me vis-à-vis "what did you folks mean this to mean".



User avatar
Suranis
Posts: 17035
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:04 am

Re: Does a promissory note have

#545

Post by Suranis » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:06 pm

So, over under on when this guy comes back, and kicks our asses again?


Learn to Swear in Latin. Profanity with class!
https://blogs.transparent.com/latin/lat ... -in-latin/

User avatar
bob
Posts: 27341
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:22 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#546

Post by bob » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:09 pm

Suranis wrote:So, over under on when this guy comes back, and kicks our asses again?
Last active: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:56 am (EDT).


Imagex6 Imagex2 Imagex4 Imagex2

User avatar
Azastan
Posts: 3884
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:42 am

Re: Does a promissory note have

#547

Post by Azastan » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:28 pm

Suranis wrote:So, over under on when this guy comes back, and kicks our asses again?
I think he's going to start a new topic of discussion so that he can brag about the new book he picked up for his law library.



User avatar
Slarti the White
Posts: 7048
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:52 pm

Re: Does a promissory note have

#548

Post by Slarti the White » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:29 am

rpenner wrote:Space magic from beyond the dawn of time, even. The UCC is what enables the Magna Carta to apply when it's been repealed in it's native country, a country which we rebelled from.
Don't you see? It's all right in front of you. England repealed the Magna Carta and we rebelled from England---automatically reinstating the Magna Carta according to the space magic from beyond the dawn of time.

duh. :doh:


"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."
---Sun Tzu (quoting Thomas Jefferson)
nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

User avatar
Dr. Blue
Posts: 914
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:01 am
Occupation: Call the doctor!

Re: Does a promissory note have

#549

Post by Dr. Blue » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:38 am

Just some guy wrote:So when people ask where you were born you say Ireland or the EU?
:snippity:
After Ireland became part of the EU, were people born there considered born in the EU or born in IRELAND?
Ya know, in Boolean logic there's a difference an or and an exclusive-or. This is not an exclusive-or. Meaning both can be true. And they both ARE true for someone born in Ireland today.

As far as where you "say" you were born, are you suggesting there is one answer?

If I'm in Italy and talking to someone for the first time, I might say I was born in the United States.

If I'm in Oregon and talking to someone, I might say I was born in Alabama.

If I'm in Huntsville and talking to someone, I might say I was born in Birmingham.

If I'm in Birmingham talking to someone, I might say Saint Vincent's hospital.

Oh.... and if I'm on Tatooine in a bar, I might say I was born on Earth.

All are true. Hint: Context matters. In fact, that's what I notice from a lot of copy-pasters, from JSG to Gimmy - they don't understand the importance of context, which is a sign of a shallow thinker.



User avatar
Dr. Blue
Posts: 914
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:01 am
Occupation: Call the doctor!

Re: Does a promissory note have

#550

Post by Dr. Blue » Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:44 am

On Aug 23 at 8:15pm:
Just Some Guy wrote:So why were people born there before the 14th amendment not called US CITIZENS?
On Aug 23 at 9:53pm:
Just Some Guy wrote:Citizens of the states were also citizens of the us,
Damn.... can't even stay consistent for two hours. Must suck to be so confused about... well.... he seems to be confused about an awful lot.



Post Reply

Return to “FEMA Camp 7½”