Does a promissory note have

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Patagoniagirl
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#426

Post by Patagoniagirl » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:08 am

I wonder if JSG is lonely because no one else will come out and play with him. Nevertheless, maybe he is learning something from real lawyers. I almost expect that he is someone I know who has spent the past few decades and most of his money in a futile attempt to sue everyone from the top down in Federal courts over a tax lien resulting from some rotten bank reporting his income (1099's) or something like that. He's winning, not. :brickwallsmall: He gave Mister copies of all his filings (massive). Mister read a few pages then we used the powerful papers to start a bonfire.

Bless all of you real lawyers for your patience. :lovestruck:

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Just some guy
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#427

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:23 am

Patagoniagirl wrote:I wonder if JSG is lonely because no one else will come out and play with him. Nevertheless, maybe he is learning something from real lawyers. I almost expect that he is someone I know who has spent the past few decades and most of his money in a futile attempt to sue everyone from the top down in Federal courts over a tax lien resulting from some rotten bank reporting his income (1099's) or something like that. He's winning, not. :brickwallsmall: He gave Mister copies of all his filings (massive). Mister read a few pages then we used the powerful papers to start a bonfire.

Bless all of you real lawyers for your patience. :lovestruck:
We all learn something everyday, but I have never sued anyone, nor will I go down that wacky ass path, nor will I lien government officials, nor will I try to access my non existent account with the treasury. I also wont be redeeming lawful money or challenge the irs on the issue of FRN'S not being constitutional money.

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Piffle
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#428

Post by Piffle » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:44 am

Just some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.

Of course as you know I could be wrong, which I am sure everyone will say I am, just waiting for you guys to prove it now.
Just for my own edification, what is meant by "fed ucc"?

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#429

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:50 am

Dr. Caligari wrote:
just some guy wrote:Also, in the majority of law firms, who does the majority of the legal research? I was under the impression that paralegals do the brunt of the research in most law firms, most with no law school training. In fact here in florida, no degree or certification is needed in order to be a paralegal is that not correct?
I have practiced law for 35+ years, in a total of 4 different law firms in 2 different states, and, in my experience, paralegals never do any substantial legal research. They may organize documents for production, do digests of transcripts, calendar due-dates, and the like, but I have never seen a paralegal crack the spine of a law book. To let a paralegal do legal research is, IMHO, probably malpractice.

I find that strange Dr. and I will tell you why, I am looking at my "Legal research and writing for paralegals" by (redacted)/Bevans (here is a different book, same subject http://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/legal-r ... id=3x20420 ) and it just as big as the regular legal research textbooks that I have for 1st year law students....and then there is this....

http://www.lawcost.com/paras.htm
General Tasks: What Paralegals Do.

[This is just one part of the listing of What Paralegals Do (and What Lawyers Shouldn't Do?). The listing reflects actual assignments to paralegals. Please read through all the parts of the list, it may influence how you manage your outside counsel with respect to staffing issues. Or you can go to the page table of contents to select another part of the list of What Paralegals Do (and What Lawyers Shouldn't Do?) by subject area ]

GENERAL

* Conduct interviews w/clients to gather background info. * Correspond w/clients, counsel, & others on factual matters. * Inform client periodically of case/matter status. * Draft pleadings & documents. * Organize & maintain forms & client files. * Index or summarize documents or transcripts. * Assemble & analyze records from courts or agencies relevant to a case or client. * Prepare clients for court hearings. * Assist in administering law library. * Review legal periodicals & material relevant to a specialty area of law. * Maintain current binders of court rules. * Maintain calendar or tickler system. * Administer paralegal program. * Research law, including procedural, administrative, or case law. * Keep track of & report any pending legislation that may affect clients.


And of course this from the ABA https://apps.americanbar.org/buslaw/blt ... nsky.shtml


Among the other fairly common tasks performed by business paralegals on a weekly basis were entity formation, due diligence, factual investigation, legal research and transactional document drafting.


And the ABA again, just to make sure the first one was not a type-o

http://www.americanbar.org/groups/paral ... ctice.html

•For example, paralegals can review and organize client files, conduct factual and legal research, prepare documents for legal transactions, draft pleadings and discovery notices, interview clients and witnesses, and assist at closings and trials.


How about paralegals for the BLS?

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/paralegals ... stants.htm

Paralegals and legal assistants do a variety of tasks to support lawyers, including maintaining and organizing files, conducting legal research, and drafting documents.


How about the Princeton review?
http://www.princetonreview.com/careers/105/paralegal

In their preparatory work, they uncover all the facts of the case, conduct research to highlight relevant case laws and court decisions

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Just some guy
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#430

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:52 am

Piffle wrote:
Just some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.

Of course as you know I could be wrong, which I am sure everyone will say I am, just waiting for you guys to prove it now.
Just for my own edification, what is meant by "fed ucc"?
This

https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc

as opposed to each states codified version of that.

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Suranis
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#431

Post by Suranis » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:59 am

Piffle wrote:
Just some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.

Of course as you know I could be wrong, which I am sure everyone will say I am, just waiting for you guys to prove it now.
Just for my own edification, what is meant by "fed ucc"?
In a normal world it means Uniform Commercial Code. God knows what it means in his brain and what version of the UCC he is making this claim from.

And this guy is really showing signs of Apuzzo disease. He is waiting for us to prove him wrong, but the only judge allowed for whether we do is him. He is, of course, totally unbiased.

Predicting response "waa waa did I say wife was a marine did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? Did I? You wrong about one thing therefore invalid!!! :crying: :crying: :crying: "

I dunno, haven't bothered looking, you are an idiot. :P
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#432

Post by ZekeB » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:08 am

Commercial Paper, JsG. Research it and get back to us.
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Dr. Caligari
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#433

Post by Dr. Caligari » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:10 am

JUst some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.
If the customer had funds to transfer, why is he taking out a loan from a bank? He could just transfer those funds to the seller and buy a house free and clear. The customer initiates the transaction by asking the bank for a loan, but the bank makes the first transfer of funds.
J.D., Miskatonic University School of Law

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Suranis
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#434

Post by Suranis » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:13 am

I just got a bank loan to clear my credit card, and it started with the bank transferring money into my account. If they had been waiting for me to transfer funds they would have been waiting a while. :-D
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Piffle
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#435

Post by Piffle » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:21 am

Just some guy wrote:
Piffle wrote:
Just some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.

Of course as you know I could be wrong, which I am sure everyone will say I am, just waiting for you guys to prove it now.
Just for my own edification, what is meant by "fed ucc"?
This

https://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc

as opposed to each states codified version of that.
Your citation is to the Cornell project's distillation of the various UCC sections as they are "most widely adopted by states." There is nothing 'federal" about it, nor is there a body of federal law adopting the UCC.

It might help if you read the accompanying Cornell "toolbox" article for a bit of background on how so-called uniform state laws are proposed and adopted (in full, in part or not at all) by the states.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#436

Post by P.K. » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:22 am

"What paralegals do" is highly dependent on various factors: what field of law they are working in, what state they are working in, and what their employers (i.e. law firm) are willing to pay them to do. When I was a work-comp legal secretary, our paralegals mainly worked on lien resolution, i.e. bargaining down sleazy vendors (the work comp world is full of sleazy vendors, at least in my area). When I worked in the estate planning field, the paralegals' work was quite different, and when I worked in construction defect law, the paralegal's work was different still. So you can't say that paralegals always do legal research, or always handle the calendar, or always do any particular task, it depends on many factors. (But of course my many years of experience means nothing compared to something you read in some book, so never mind.)
IANALBIPOOTV - I am not a lawyer, but I've played one on TV. In fact, IANA (fill in the blank) but chances are I've played on on TV.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#437

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:24 am

Dr. Caligari wrote:
JUst some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.
If the customer had funds to transfer, why is he taking out a loan from a bank? He could just transfer those funds to the seller and buy a house free and clear. The customer initiates the transaction by asking the bank for a loan, but the bank makes the first transfer of funds.

(a) "Funds transfer" means the series of transactions, beginning with the originator's payment order

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#438

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:26 am

P.K. wrote:"What paralegals do" is highly dependent on various factors: what field of law they are working in, what state they are working in, and what their employers (i.e. law firm) are willing to pay them to do. When I was a work-comp legal secretary, our paralegals mainly worked on lien resolution, i.e. bargaining down sleazy vendors (the work comp world is full of sleazy vendors, at least in my area). When I worked in the estate planning field, the paralegals' work was quite different, and when I worked in construction defect law, the paralegal's work was different still. So you can't say that paralegals always do legal research, or always handle the calendar, or always do any particular task, it depends on many factors. (But of course my many years of experience means nothing compared to something you read in some book, so never mind.)
Do they do legal research, yes or no?

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#439

Post by BBFlatt » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:28 am

Just some guy wrote:
Dr. Caligari wrote:
JUst some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.
If the customer had funds to transfer, why is he taking out a loan from a bank? He could just transfer those funds to the seller and buy a house free and clear. The customer initiates the transaction by asking the bank for a loan, but the bank makes the first transfer of funds.

(a) "Funds transfer" means the series of transactions, beginning with the originator's payment order
Clarification please, is it your contention that a promissory note is a payment order?

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#440

Post by P.K. » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:28 am

Just some guy wrote:
P.K. wrote:"What paralegals do" is highly dependent on various factors: what field of law they are working in, what state they are working in, and what their employers (i.e. law firm) are willing to pay them to do. When I was a work-comp legal secretary, our paralegals mainly worked on lien resolution, i.e. bargaining down sleazy vendors (the work comp world is full of sleazy vendors, at least in my area). When I worked in the estate planning field, the paralegals' work was quite different, and when I worked in construction defect law, the paralegal's work was different still. So you can't say that paralegals always do legal research, or always handle the calendar, or always do any particular task, it depends on many factors. (But of course my many years of experience means nothing compared to something you read in some book, so never mind.)
Do they do legal research, yes or no?
Did you even read what I wrote, yes or no?
IANALBIPOOTV - I am not a lawyer, but I've played one on TV. In fact, IANA (fill in the blank) but chances are I've played on on TV.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#441

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:29 am

Just some guy wrote:
Dr. Caligari wrote:
JUst some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.
If the customer had funds to transfer, why is he taking out a loan from a bank? He could just transfer those funds to the seller and buy a house free and clear. The customer initiates the transaction by asking the bank for a loan, but the bank makes the first transfer of funds.

(a) "Funds transfer" means the series of transactions, beginning with the originator's payment order
You're so smart. We go from promissory notes to consideration to the statutes regulating wire transfers.

Why?

The rules are different for different financial transactions. And for the laws of contract.

You have no idea what you're doing as you wander aimlessly through the forest, every once in a while seeing a weed and confusing it for a tree. And you obviously don't understand the difference between Federal and state laws and model statutes. Your legal education is a mess. Just like your thinking.

Dr. Caligari is right. You're wrong. As usual.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#442

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:32 am

P.K. wrote:
Just some guy wrote:
P.K. wrote:"What paralegals do" is highly dependent on various factors: what field of law they are working in, what state they are working in, and what their employers (i.e. law firm) are willing to pay them to do. When I was a work-comp legal secretary, our paralegals mainly worked on lien resolution, i.e. bargaining down sleazy vendors (the work comp world is full of sleazy vendors, at least in my area). When I worked in the estate planning field, the paralegals' work was quite different, and when I worked in construction defect law, the paralegal's work was different still. So you can't say that paralegals always do legal research, or always handle the calendar, or always do any particular task, it depends on many factors. (But of course my many years of experience means nothing compared to something you read in some book, so never mind.)
Do they do legal research, yes or no?
Did you even read what I wrote, yes or no?
Yes I did, and while I find it amazing, the question remains, DO PARALEGALS DO LEGAL RESEARCH?

yes or no?

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#443

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:33 am

Just some guy wrote:
P.K. wrote:"What paralegals do" is highly dependent on various factors: what field of law they are working in, what state they are working in, and what their employers (i.e. law firm) are willing to pay them to do. When I was a work-comp legal secretary, our paralegals mainly worked on lien resolution, i.e. bargaining down sleazy vendors (the work comp world is full of sleazy vendors, at least in my area). When I worked in the estate planning field, the paralegals' work was quite different, and when I worked in construction defect law, the paralegal's work was different still. So you can't say that paralegals always do legal research, or always handle the calendar, or always do any particular task, it depends on many factors. (But of course my many years of experience means nothing compared to something you read in some book, so never mind.)
Do they do legal research, yes or no?
They may. No law firm I know would allow them to do so. And, as usual, it depends on the circumstances and the state. We have 51 state laws we're dealing with here. In some places paralegals don't have to be licensed. In other places they do. Again, this is part of your aimless wander through laws, without any idea of how they are connected or unrelated.

The answer to most of your unfocused questions is "it depends." You'll get a great legal education from that, if you learn how to think critically. But you won't. You don't know what's important and what isn't. What's relevant and what isn't. Your legal thinking is, for want of a better word, schizophrenic.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#444

Post by Piffle » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:37 am

Just some guy wrote:So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.
...
(a) "Funds transfer" means the series of transactions, beginning with the originator's payment order
I see what you did. You conveniently swapped "originator" for "customer". :nope:

The customer who made application for the loan does not become the originator of a subsequent transfer of funds pursuant to the approved loan agreement.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#445

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:49 am

Just some guy wrote:
Mikedunford wrote:You're citing to the 2012 version of Article 4A of the UCC. A couple of questions about that:

1: Strictly speaking, are funds transfers between a bank in Tampa and a bank in Miami governed by Article 4A of the Uniform Commercial Code? Why or why not.

2: How does Article 4A of the UCC interact with the EFTA?

3: How does Article 4A of the UCC interact with Federal Reserve requirements and circulars?
1. yes, codified at florida statutes chapter 670.

2. [D] special considerations for consumer orginated wire transfers https://books.google.com/books?id=7cjwm ... TA&f=false

Seems that the order from consumer to bank 1 is still under ucc 4-104, however the transfer from bank a to bank b is not, however we are not worried about that.

3. 4A-107. FEDERAL RESERVE REGULATIONS AND OPERATING CIRCULARS.
Regulations of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and operating circulars of the Federal Reserve Banks supersede any inconsistent provision of this Article to the extent of the inconsistency.
1. The correct answer is that, strictly speaking, the funds transfers between a bank in Tampa and a bank in Miami are not governed by Article 4A of the UCC, because the UCC is not law in its own right. The transfers are governed by the Florida enactment of the UCC, but not by the UCC itself. In fact, very, very few transactions are governed directly by the UCC. (It's possible, at least in theory, for the UCC to be incorporated into a governing law clause in international contracts; aside from that, everything is governed through state law enactments.)

And while that might sound nit-picky, it can be important. You linked to the 2012 version of Article 4A. Have all states enacted the 2012 amendments yet? If they did enact them, did they do so verbatim, or were there any minor changes? If they didn't, does it matter, or is the earlier version identical to the newer version in all important respects? Have the Florida courts had reason to interpret the Florida enactment, and if so does their Maybe - probably - the Florida version incorporates everything in the official version, but shortcuts are sloppy and risky.

2. I didn't ask whether we were worried about the EFTA. I asked how the EFTA interacts with UCC Article 4A.
New (and related) question: assume that Congress passes a law tomorrow that affects all transfers currently covered by UCC Article 4A. Because this is a new law, it's not mentioned anywhere in the text of 4A. How would this law interact with the provisions of 4A?

3. Correct.
Also as far as the efta goes mike, remember what I am interested in... 1. who is the originator of the first funds transfer 2. customer sends the first funds transfer by written instruction (closing) not by electronic means, i'm not interested in the transfer of funds from the originators bank to the receiving bank.

So all the bs aside, according to fed ucc and in my state chapter 670, the first funds transfer is done by the customer.

Of course as you know I could be wrong, which I am sure everyone will say I am, just waiting for you guys to prove it now.
Setting everything else aside, please explain again which funds transfer you are referring to by the "first funds transfer." If, by "first transfer," you mean the electronic transaction in which the bank credits the account of the borrower with the loan proceeds, then I don't see how the customer is the originator - even assuming that UCC 4A applies.

And I am far from certain UCC 4A applies. First, as we've already clarified, you will need to show that there is nothing inconsistent in the Federal Reserve regulations and operating circulars. Have you done that research yet? Second, I'm not sure that UCC 4A applies on its own terms, because you have not demonstrated that the first transfer is a payment order as defined in 4A-103. Third, you have not explained how the borrower would be the sender for the transfer into the borrower's account.
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#446

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:03 pm

Just some guy wrote:
P.K. wrote:
Just some guy wrote:
Do they do legal research, yes or no?
Did you even read what I wrote, yes or no?
Yes I did, and while I find it amazing, the question remains, DO PARALEGALS DO LEGAL RESEARCH?

yes or no?
You are quoting from many sources that tell you what paralegals can - in theory - do. And you have experienced attorneys and other members of the legal profession explaining to you what paralegals (in their experience) actually do. Your call on whether you want to believe that their decades of experience are atypical.

There were two former paralegals I knew well at law school. Both had taken legal research classes in their paralegal training programs. One spent the two years he was a paralegal doing preliminary document review in cases with massive discovery. (As in he went through the documents that had been disclosed, put them into order where necessary, eliminated duplicates, and eliminated documents that were clearly irrelevant from the pile that then went to attorneys for review.) The other worked for a small firm and did a range of tasks, but he said that the closest he got to doing legal research was when they let him Shepardize cases in the motion templates that the firm used.
Edit: ETA: When I was an EMT (a couple of decades ago), EMTs could pick up hours by working as Nursing Assistants at the hospital. According to the job description, there were lots of things we could do, including stuff like checking vitals. In practice, the job exclusively involved helping lift patients, helping transport patients, and bedpan duty.
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Re: Does a promissory note have

#447

Post by Dr. Caligari » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:38 pm

Just some guy wrote:Do they do legal research, yes or no?
Not if they work for me, or for any law firm I ever worked at. I'm sure some lawyers in some places have paralegals do research; in my field (complex litigation), I consider it dangerous. Others may differ.
J.D., Miskatonic University School of Law

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#448

Post by Sam the Centipede » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:49 pm

Patagoniagirl wrote:I wonder if JSG is lonely because no one else will come out and play with him. Nevertheless, maybe he is learning something from real lawyers. I almost expect that he is someone I know who has spent the past few decades and most of his money in a futile attempt to sue everyone from the top down in Federal courts over a tax lien resulting from some rotten bank reporting his income (1099's) or something like that. He's winning, not. :brickwallsmall: He gave Mister copies of all his filings (massive). Mister read a few pages then we used the powerful papers to start a bonfire.

Bless all of you real lawyers for your patience. :lovestruck:
I'm not going to knock JSG: every time I click over to see what's going on this thread (on 18 pages as I type), in my mind I hear the Lonely Goatherd song from The Sound of Music, and imagine JSG yodelling and pulling the strings as all the Fogbow lawyers dance around to his tune like little puppets in a toy theater!

It is most excellent trolling by JSG. If the contributing law-talking guys enjoy having their strings pulled, that's fine. I think it's quite hilarious.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#449

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:46 pm

BBFlatt wrote:
Just some guy wrote:
Dr. Caligari wrote:
If the customer had funds to transfer, why is he taking out a loan from a bank? He could just transfer those funds to the seller and buy a house free and clear. The customer initiates the transaction by asking the bank for a loan, but the bank makes the first transfer of funds.

(a) "Funds transfer" means the series of transactions, beginning with the originator's payment order
Clarification please, is it your contention that a promissory note is a payment order?
No, my PN is the first funds transfer and is followed by my payment order to the bank to pay the seller for the house.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#450

Post by Piffle » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:50 pm

Just some guy wrote:No, my PN is the first funds transfer and is followed by my payment order to the bank to pay the seller for the house.
:brickwallsmall: This is just plain silly.

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