Does a promissory note have

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Just some guy
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Does a promissory note have

#1

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:20 pm

actual cash value or is it just evidence of a debt?



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#2

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:24 pm

Just some guy wrote:actual cash value or is it just evidence of a debt?
It's as good as the maker. It is evidence of a debt. If the maker behind it is good for it, then it has cash value, too.



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#3

Post by Whatever4 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:27 pm

Just some guy wrote:actual cash value or is it just evidence of a debt?
Are we talking IOUs or actual legal papers? Because we used to trade a certain guy's IOUs for Cokes when I was in college.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#4

Post by Notorial Dissent » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:01 pm

It's an asset, whether or not that asset has any actual value can be a real question.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#5

Post by Whip » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:20 pm

Notorial Dissent wrote:It's an asset, whether or not that asset has any actual value can be a real question.
are you flogging Re again? :-D



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#6

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:24 pm

Just some guy wrote:actual cash value or is it just evidence of a debt?
What :sterngard: said - it's primarily evidence, but it might be tradable for cash, depending on its terms, the credit of the person/company backing it, and so on.


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#7

Post by Northland10 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:36 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Just some guy wrote:actual cash value or is it just evidence of a debt?
What :sterngard: said - it's primarily evidence, but it might be tradable for cash, depending on its terms, the credit of the person/company backing it, and so on.
SallieMae liked to collect promissory notes I signed with various banks.


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#8

Post by Just some guy » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:52 pm

If it has actual cash value then the bank could sell it right? The holder in due course does have to accept the instrument for value for him to be even considered a holder correct?



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#9

Post by Mikedunford » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:09 pm

Just some guy wrote:If it has actual cash value then the bank could sell it right? The holder in due course does have to accept the instrument for value for him to be even considered a holder correct?
And, again, it depends.

It almost always does, particularly if it's something in the contract law family. Incidentally, that's one of the things that bemuses me the most about the various sovereign-citizen beliefs about contract law. The beliefs are all so totally formalistic. And contract law, particularly in common law jurisdictions, so isn't.


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#10

Post by Dr. Caligari » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:13 pm

Just some guy wrote:If it has actual cash value then the bank could sell it right? The holder in due course does have to accept the instrument for value for him to be even considered a holder correct?
To be a holder in due course, the person to whom the note is negotiated must pay value (though not necessarily the full face value), must take the note in good faith, and must not be aware of any defenses to the note. If any or all of those things are missing, the person is still a holder, but not a holder in due course. The difference is that the maker of the note can assert many types of defenses against an ordinary holder, but very few defenses against a holder in due course.


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#11

Post by Jez » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:13 pm

Neither a lawyer nor banker do I be, but I've written some policies over the years.

How I understand it (and please, correct me if I'm wrong):
Generally, the lender (for sake of simplicity, let's call it a bank) writes the terms of the note. The borrower (of, say, a car loan) agrees to the terms. The paperwork they sign is the promissory note saying "Yes, I will pay back the $10,000 I borrowed from you per the terms specified in the agreement."

Now the Lender (i.e., bank) will sometimes hold on to this promissory note as part of their portfolio, and sometime they will sell it. They rarely sell single notes, but usually score them using an in-house algorithm based on the likelihood of repayment. Ones with mid-range/higher scores are then bundled together and sold to investors. This can sometimes be larger banks or specialty investment firms. The originating bank gets cash flow on the sold note and the investor agrees to take on the risk of repayment, in the hopes that they will get full repayment along with a bit of profit from the interest.

The borrower is still bound by the terms of the note, whether the lender keeps or sells the note.

At least that is how I understand it from writing the policies and procedures for a couple of different banks. And that is a layman's understanding. Please correct me where I am wrong. I would like to know what is correct.


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#12

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:16 pm

Promissory notes come in all shapes and sizes, many with security, many with conditions. To try to generalize a rule from "promissory note" is perilous without context. But, of course, that's what you're going to try to do. Because that's what you do.

Aliquantulum scientiae periculosissimum est -- especially when you don't know the limits of your ignorance.



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#13

Post by Slartibartfast » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:18 pm

Just some guy wrote:If it has actual cash value then the bank could sell it right? The holder in due course does have to accept the instrument for value for him to be even considered a holder correct?
You are confusing intrinsic value with perceived value. A promissory note has no intrinsic value, just a perceived value based on an estimation of the willingness and ability of the issuer to make good on the debt (or the ability of the holder to collect through litigation or other means). The holder of the note doesn't have to "accept" anything and the note has an actual value to them: the amount that they can collect on the debt or the amount they could sell it for.

By the way, it's pretty obvious where you're planning on going with this. (Ninja'd by :sterngard: )


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#14

Post by Notorial Dissent » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:25 pm

Basically, a PN is like an IOU, it could be worth what is printed on it, or not, depending, and that is the ONLY and best answer.


The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

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Re: Does a promissory note have

#15

Post by Suranis » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:54 pm

The only value of the Promissory is that someone has promised to pay the holder a certain amount in a certain period of time. If the payment is optional then the note is worth fuck and all, and no-one in their right mind would buy one.


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#16

Post by Foggy » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:59 pm

A promissory note has cash value only if it's signed in blood under a weeping willow during a full moon. A lot of amateurs try to get away with using catsup with a drop of red wine, but that never works. Pro tip: Use a small amount of Bazooka bubble gum to attach a Mercury head dime to the top left of the note. Bury the note six inches deep in a vegetable garden at midnight and dig it back up with a plastic spork after 13 days. Your note now has a cash value of $.10.

Hint: Don't get any blood on the dime! :geek:


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#17

Post by realist » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:07 pm

Foggy wrote:A promissory note has cash value only if it's signed in blood under a weeping willow during a full moon. A lot of amateurs try to get away with using catsup with a drop of red wine, but that never works. Pro tip: Use a small amount of Bazooka bubble gum to attach a Mercury head dime to the top left of the note. Bury the note six inches deep in a vegetable garden at midnight and dig it back up with a plastic spork after 13 days. Your note now has a cash value of $.10.

Hint: Don't get any blood on the dime! :geek:
You just can't keep a secret, can you.

:(


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#18

Post by noblepa » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:23 pm

I suspect that I know where JSG is going with this question, too. He is trying to get us to "admit" that a PN has cash value and is therefore interchangeable with cash. He will then argue, as many sovcits do, that he can pay off a debt with a PN.

While a PN may have cash value, depending, as others have said, on many factors, not the least of which is the credit worthiness of the maker, it is not legal tender.

If I owe a debt of money to someone, whether an individual, a bank or other institutional lender, the ONLY thing that they are REQIURED to accept in payment is legal tender. That is US Federal Reserve notes. For security and convenience, checks drawn on a legitimate US bank, and denominated in US Dollars, are almost universally accepted as payment, provided that the bank the check is drawn on follows through and transfers US Dollars to the lender's account. But, the lender is not legally required to accept a check or any type of payment, other than legal tender.

That eliminated WeRe Bank, on several counts. First of all, they're not in the US. Secondly, they don't deal in US Dollars. Thirdly and most importantly, Peter of England has stated, in no uncertain terms, that WeRe Bank will NEVER TRANSFER ANY MONEY TO ANYONE ELSE.

I have heard sovcits try to argue that checks or even dollar bills (or pound notes, or Euro notes) are promises to pay. They are not.

Look at a real check. Besides the date, routing and account numbers, you will see the phrase "Pay To The Order Of: __________". A check is an order to my bank to take funds (provided I have enough on deposit) from my account and give it to the person or organization named in that phrase. There is no promise to pay. It is an order to the bank to do something, pursuant to my contract with them. Rather than being a promise to pay, it is (in most cases) the fullfillment of a previous promise (either implicit or explicit) to pay.

A Snickers bar has cash value. But I don't think I can make a car payment with 300 Snickers bars. The bank is free to accept them as payment, but is under no obligation (and IMHO is extremely unlikely to) accept them. The same is true of PN's.



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#19

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:30 pm

Maybe the initial poster can get to the point and tell us what he really wants to know. Or does he want to string this out with another silly word game? His choice but I won't play the silly word game.



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#20

Post by noblepa » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:32 pm

Sterngard Friegen wrote:Maybe the initial poster can get to the point and tell us what he really wants to know. Or does he want to string this out with another silly word game? His choice but I won't play the silly word game.
I agree. Unless/until JSG returns and explains just what he is driving at, we should ignore this thread.



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#21

Post by Suranis » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:48 pm

Foggy wrote:A promissory note has cash value only if it's signed in blood under a weeping willow during a full moon...
If you intone in Latin and bow three times to the Vatican, you can get it up to $0.20. Its how the Jesuits control the world currency market. :towel:


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#22

Post by SueDB » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:53 pm

Aren't they illegal unless they have a cash value - like 1/40th of a mil or some stuff like that (mil=thousanth)???

Oh yes, that was coupons in this state..........


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#23

Post by fierceredpanda » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:58 pm

Every time I see "WeRe Bank" I imagine it as a Were-Bank, as in werewolf.

Which seems oddly appropriate, since neither of them actually exists.


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Re: Does a promissory note have

#24

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:59 pm

noblepa wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:Maybe the initial poster can get to the point and tell us what he really wants to know. Or does he want to string this out with another silly word game? His choice but I won't play the silly word game.
I agree. Unless/until JSG returns and explains just what he is driving at, we should ignore this thread.
Agreed.



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Re: Does a promissory note have

#25

Post by Just some guy » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:32 am

Sterngard Friegen wrote:Maybe the initial poster can get to the point and tell us what he really wants to know. Or does he want to string this out with another silly word game? His choice but I won't play the silly word game.

Because I wanted to see if this was true...


The promissory note when deposited acts as cash as per federal law definition of the word DEPOSIT...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/12/1813


(l) Deposit

The term “deposit” means—



(1)

the unpaid balance of money or its equivalent received or held by a bank or savings association in the usual course of business and for which it has given or is obligated to give credit, either conditionally or unconditionally, to a commercial, checking, savings, time, or thrift account, or which is evidenced by its certificate of deposit, thrift certificate, investment certificate, certificate of indebtedness, or other similar name, or a check or draft drawn against a deposit account and certified by the bank or savings association, or a letter of credit or a traveler’s check on which the bank or savings association is primarily liable:



Provided

, That, without limiting the generality of the term “money or its equivalent”, any such account or instrument must be regarded as evidencing the receipt of the equivalent of money when credited or issued in exchange for checks or drafts or for a promissory note upon which the person obtaining any such credit or instrument is primarily or secondarily liable, or for a charge against a deposit account, or in settlement of checks, drafts, or other instruments forwarded to such bank or savings association for collection.



By money or it's equivalent, they mean money of account, which I come to think a loan is, a simple exchange of money of account, notes for credits. which is backed up by the fed themselves in MMM.

https://archive.org/stream/ModernMoneyM ... M_djvu.txt

What they do when they make
loans is to accept promissory notes in exchange for credits
to the borrowers' transaction accounts.


Which is also in line with G.A.A.P.'s matching principle.



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