Jeffrey's Thread

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Slim Cognito
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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#126

Post by Slim Cognito » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:47 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:32 pm
What percentage of Puerto Ricans have "their workers"? The statement can only be interpreted to refer to the mayor of San Juan and members of the political class that are not pulling their own weight. It cannot be stretched, as Sugar and others have attempted to do, to apply to all 3.5 million Puerto Rican's particularly when there are other tweets by Trump praising the work being done by private citizens and local politicians.
You can't move the goalposts now. You said the tweet was directed only at Mayor Cruz. You don't get to add the "political class not pulling its own weight," which, BTW, I'm not buying either.

As for Trump's tweets finally praising Puerto Ricans, those came AFTER the scorching reaction to these tweets. Those were mop-ups, prodded by staff members trying to clean up his earlier mess.

There's a reason why a large number of Fogbowsers have blocked you. You can continue to twist and shout, but soon you'll be the only one here able to read it. And what fun will that be?


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#127

Post by boots » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:49 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:32 pm
What percentage of Puerto Ricans have "their workers"?
OK, now that is starting to sound like trolling.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#128

Post by Jeffrey » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:01 pm

As for Trump's tweets finally praising Puerto Ricans, those came AFTER the scorching reaction to these tweets. Those were mop-ups, prodded by staff members trying to clean up his earlier mess.
Trumps twitter feed shows that to be false he was praising the work done there before attacking the Mayor, even complimented the mayor on Twitter a few days before her unwarranted attacks:



A day prior he praised efforts of locals:





As well as retweeting posts by the governor of Puerto Rico:



He only hit back after the comments by the mayor of San Juan which were out of line.

If his beliefs really were that Puerto Rican's were lazy and wanted everything done for them as Sugar stated, he wouldn't have a day earlier said "locals (puerto Ricans) [are] trying really hard to help but many have lost their homes".



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#129

Post by Slim Cognito » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:36 pm

I hadn't seen those tweets, so points to you.

Now back to the original post. You said his comment was directed only at the mayor, not at the people of Puerto Rico. Then you said they were directed at her and other politicians not pulling their weight. Now you're back to Trump "hitting back" at the at the "unfair" mayor.

Personally, I'm with Sugar. Looking back at Trump's behavior the past few years, the hateful responses Trump throws out whenever his incompetence is highlighted, causing him to attack unchecked, so I believe he was, indeed, calling all the people of Puerto Rico lazy. You and I will never see eye to eye for the very reasons many other members here have already blocked you, but I admit my mistake re: Trump's earlier tweets. Let's see if you're man enough to admit you are. Here's the comment to which I originally responded. It is patently false. Can you admit that? If you again swerve and dodge, I will be the next to block you. I'm not wasting any more time debating someone who moves the goalposts.
Trump never blamed Puerto Rico for not helping themselves. His comments were aimed at the mayor of San Juan, not at the island as a whole.


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#130

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:00 pm

Jeffrey wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:38 pm
As to misrepresenting statements:
Of all the stupid, insane things trump has said in the last few months, none have affected me so emotionally as him blaming PR for not helping themselves.
Trump never blamed Puerto Rico for not helping themselves. His comments were aimed at the mayor of San Juan, not at the island as a whole.

Lying about what anyone said is out of line always.
As out of line as saying someone lied? I read the tweets, his own words, in the order they were written, and what I came away with is that he was accusing the people of Puerto Rico of not helping themselves. Me and many, many other people who are much smarter than I am all thought that was what he was saying. He didn't direct it to the Gov. or the Mayor or anyone else. He made a blanket statement and I took his words at face value. That you seem to have come away with a different interpretation of them doesn't make me a liar.
He has been predominantly positive about Trumps response to the hurricane. There is no legitimate reason to dismiss the governors portrayal of relief efforts in favor of the narrative promulgated by the mayor of San Juan.
Saying there is no legitimate reason to dismiss the gov's opinion is naïve at best. He's in a position right now that he pretty much has to make nice with Trump to get the best possible result for the hurricane recovery now and in the future. Picking a fight with him will only end badly for PR.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#131

Post by Sam the Centipede » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Techno Luddite wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:49 pm
Jeffrey wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:32 pm
What percentage of Puerto Ricans have "their workers"?
OK, now that is starting to sound like trolling.
Yup. Looks like pro-Trump concern trolling to go with earlier pro-nazi concern trolling. In general, it's reasonable to wish to apply a generous and constructive interpretation to a politician's statements (including tweets) but there's absolutely no reason to look for the best with Trump, who has always shown himself to be a lazy, semi-literate, vindictive white supremacist with no understanding of the world outside his golf dumps and the gilded cesspits he calls hotels.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#132

Post by RVInit » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:05 pm

:yeah: His tweet clearly was aimed at the average Puerto Rican. It goes along with his other tweets about how all the Puerto Rican truck drivers were "at home with their families". Insinuating that they wouldn't sully themselves by actually working, delivering supplies "like they should be doing".


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#133

Post by Jeffrey » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:22 pm

If I wanted to troll I would cite the adulation our Resident Commissioner is piling on Trump but she's a republican and generally vile human being.

Sorry but the text of the tweets are clear. The only people that could be interpreted as referring to is the mayor of San Juan. Your genocide interpretation requires ignoring the text of the tweet itself, prior and latter texts in which he praised Puerto Rican efforts and the fact that he's complied with every request made of him by the governor.

As to the flattery position. That would be a legitimate reason to dismiss the governors version of events, but it ignores that the governors "Trump is doing a lot but not enough" is still a critical stance.
Looks like pro-Trump concern trolling
You know if you actually wanna go with the Trump Puerto Rico genocide meme there's a legitimate way of arguing that. Obamacare repeal would take away healthcare from 900,000 Puerto Rican's on the island, that would kill more people than Hurricane Maria did.

I'll concede he wants to kill us but withholding FEMA aid is not how he's doing it.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#134

Post by Slim Cognito » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:26 pm

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Block on, Jeffery. I'm outta here.


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#135

Post by Jeffrey » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:43 pm

Pretty good example of what's wrong with the left in 2017, thin skin, anything interpreted as being right of Michael Moore is a Nazi. More interested in the tone than substance. Literally inventing reasons to get offended then have a little contest where whoever is more offended wins.

That's a great way to destroy public discourse in this country.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#136

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:44 pm

While Jeffery is blocked, others quote him and I can see I made a good decision.

I won't respond to him -- I will not engage in debate with anyone who apologizes for nazis and minimizes them -- but I do think this thread needs to be renamed -- Jeffrey's Apologetics for nazis and Trump. He seems to have that down to a fine science -- in the name of "balance." He can discuss what was good about the American institution of slavery -- in the name of balance -- and what was good about the Holocaust -- in defending nazis -- by himself.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#137

Post by RoadScholar » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:49 pm

"Thin skin," Jeffrey? Coming from you?

Heh. That's rich.


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#138

Post by Jeffrey » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:36 am

Hey since the cable company got destroyed I don't got national news so riddle me this. Are they showing the part of the speech where the mayor of San Juan praised Maduro or are they cutting that part off? If not, which is my prediction, do you think it's because it was in Spanish or because it would make the mayor look bad and it's more important to use her as leverage against Trump?

The political spectrum is a bit more complicated than Trump bad, everything else good. Citing a politician that praises communist dictators and terrorists just to score a few points against Trump is obscene.

And for the record I've been critical of the mayor for over a year, including on YouTube. Shes part of a fringe faction of a minority political party. In many ways she embodies the worst of puertorican politics from fiscal irresponsibility, ultra populism, conspiracy theories etc. It's baffling that people that don't follow local politics, didn't give a shit about the island before the hurricane hit, back when we had daily blackouts and mayors had stopped picking up garbage, to act like they give a shit now and promote one of the worst mayors on the island.
Thin skin," Jeffrey? Coming from you?
Hey chief, y'all are calling me a Nazi. That's gonna sting even the toughest hides.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#139

Post by Jeffrey » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:50 pm

Posting some Alf left news in here since it’s sadly controversial on this forum:

http://reason.com/blog/2017/10/04/black ... ut-down-th

The pushback against the anti-free speech left rightfully should come from the left itself. The “if you defend free speech you’re a Nazi” meme just relinquishes a basic liberal value to the right and alt right.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#140

Post by kate520 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:51 pm

Seriously, Jeffrey, you think libertarians are alt left? Is that because the name has some of the same letters as liberal?

They are, more accurately, right light.


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#141

Post by ZekeB » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:59 pm

kate520 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:51 pm
They are, more accurately, right light.
Socially they are very Left. As for the economy, they are very Right. Few taxes. All roads should be toll roads. Pay only for what you use. Calling Libertarians alt-left is completely off the mark.


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#142

Post by Suranis » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 pm

Libertarians are pro-corporate right wing Anarchists. That's the main difference between them and communistic Anarchists. Communist Anarchists want to eliminate property and leadership, Libertarians want to eliminate any restrictions on property, and corporation rights.

You have to remember, Jeffery, that your left wing is actually very very right wing compared with the rest of the world. Your Right wing is lunatic territory. I quite like Michael Moore in an "he's a good asshole" kinda way, and he makes good documentaries, but talking about him as arch left wing is laughable. He actually would be regarded as pretty centrist, internationally. In "capitalism, a love story" he spent some time talking with the Jesuits. :eek2: :eek2:

Talk to any American "left winger" that has spent time in Europe, and every one of them will say that they were shocked to find hos conservative they felt.

You ARE right that the "Left wing" in the USA is very dogmatic, but that's really because they are actually pretty right wing. The Conservative party in England has gotten pretty crazy lately, but before then it would be pretty interchangeable with the Democratic Party. Obama was actually a little right wing for my tastes, and I'm a pretty hardcore social conservative over here.

So, basically when you start tossing around labels, you have to realize - you are in a society that's politically fucking nuts. You are really overdue for a massive social shift in America, and I tell you there is not much room left on the right for your society to shift.

Also, if you are carrying water for the right wing, don't expect any reward for your loyalty, other than having your pocket picked.

Anyway, have a good day. :)


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#143

Post by boots » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:42 pm

Suranis wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:07 pm
Libertarians are pro-corporate right wing Anarchists. That's the main difference between them and communistic Anarchists. Communist Anarchists want to eliminate property and leadership, Libertarians want to eliminate any restrictions on property, and corporation rights.
It is true that Reason.com is a libertarian site. It isn't "alt-left" if such a thing even exists. It's also not alt-right, it's also not anarchist, and it's also not a libertarian purist's site by any stretch of the imagination.

However, it's inaccurate to say libertarians (either small l or large L) are "pro-corporate right wing Anarchists." No, they're not. The ones that vote certainly are not. The ones that identify as anarchists are, well, err, "anarchists" more than anything.

It's also incorrect to say "Libertarians want to eliminate any restrictions on property, and corporation rights." Using absolutes to describe people you don't understand is a bad idea, generally, and in this case as well.

Case in point, former candidate Johnson sent out a shockingly reasonable email today, calling for even pro-second amendment persons to engage in discussion on gun rights and restrictions. I am sure there are some libertarian purists, still recovering from the hives they broke out in when Austin Peterson didn't get their nomination, who were sent into convulsions by this.

But most libertarians aren't purists, are more "cafeteria libertarians" and don't have neck beards, don't masturbate to Ayn Rand, etc. It's a nice caricature to lampoon those who don't belong to the same club, but it ain't reality.

Now that my threadjack -detour- footnote is complete, I am signing off.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#144

Post by Suranis » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:51 pm

Techno Luddite wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:42 pm
But most libertarians aren't purists, are more "cafeteria libertarians" and don't have neck beards, don't masturbate to Ayn Rand, etc. It's a nice caricature to lampoon those who don't belong to the same club, but it ain't reality.
Yeah, I think tis the season for unfair stereotypes. Sorry :)

(Wanders off to drink Guinness, and dance on the crossroads to Leprechauns playing fiddles)


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#145

Post by boots » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:53 pm

Suranis wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:51 pm
Techno Luddite wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:42 pm
But most libertarians aren't purists, are more "cafeteria libertarians" and don't have neck beards, don't masturbate to Ayn Rand, etc. It's a nice caricature to lampoon those who don't belong to the same club, but it ain't reality.
Yeah, I think tis the season for unfair stereotypes. Sorry :)

(Wanders off to drink Guinness, and dance on the crossroads to Leprechauns playing fiddles)
:lol:

I was unhappy to learn that if I eat vegan I can't drink Guinness. It's apparently filtered with this stuff called Isinglass, made out of fish bladders, or something. Good thing there are many, many microbrew stouts here in so cal to sample!



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#146

Post by Suranis » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:56 pm

If you are ever in Dublin, go to this place called the Oyster Bar, they brew their own Stouts. I'm not a drinker and even I think its great stuff.


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#147

Post by ObjectiveDoubter » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:22 pm

I've been following this since the beginning but felt better leaving the comments of all kinds, to others. But having caught up on the last day or two comments, I can't keep quiet any longer and I've got to ask two questions.

First, how is Jeffrey different than any of the other pretend-not-trolls that sign up here every so often and shade their opinions, for the sole purpose of baiting us? He's not. It's not about debate at all or stimulating thought, it's about being annoying, getting under our skin, getting a rise out of us.

Second, until he moves on, why don't we all just put him on actual or mental Ignore?



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#148

Post by RoadScholar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:40 pm

Done.


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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#149

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:59 pm

Did. I believe I was first.



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Re: Jeffrey's Thread

#150

Post by Jeffrey » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:58 pm

kate520 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:51 pm
Seriously, Jeffrey, you think libertarians are alt left? Is that because the name has some of the same letters as liberal?

They are, more accurately, right light.
How'd you read that as implying that Libertarians are alt left? I'm saying the anti-ACLU protestors are alt left.



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