Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

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Suranis
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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#101

Post by Suranis » Wed May 03, 2017 11:49 pm

When I do my monthly Cannibalism, I prefer Vegan Sacrifices. Virgin sacrifices are so medieval, you have to keep with the times.


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RoadScholar
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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#102

Post by RoadScholar » Thu May 04, 2017 5:49 am

Slartibartfast wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:I have read both versions a couple of times and I can't spot the added material. It's not my favorite Heinlein novel, either.

Yeah, the added stuff always struck me as more, not better or worse. I think the editor did the right thing with the version that was published, but once it became beloved, more is better.

My favorite would be The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Somehow it seems to be the quintessential Heinlein novel to me. It's got everything: revolution, politics, artificial intelligence, group marriages (can't be Heinlein without it), and the weaponization of the gravitational potential.
Yes! My favorite too. (Also)


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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#103

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu May 04, 2017 10:01 am

:like:



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listeme
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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#104

Post by listeme » Thu May 04, 2017 10:25 am

Whaaat. Stranger is not just a book; it's a symbol. It is greatness, in book form.

(Like communion is a symbol. :mrgreen: )

But I admit I have a fondness for some of Heinlein's later works anyway, despite some of the, um, perverted stuff in them. (And really, I do mean DESPITE. But god, that guy could write in a way that kept you turning the pages. If I could bottle that...)

Okay, Farnham's Freehold was a complete trainwreck, and Job was a good try at something, that missed quite a bit.


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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#105

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu May 04, 2017 11:10 am

Stranger had Jubal Harshaw (aka, me), which was its only saving grace as far as I am concerned. I don't like the Jeebus story. I didn't really like the novel when I first read it (while in high school) and I didn't much like it when I read it almost 600 years later. I also liked Jubal better in his earlier portrayals.



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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#106

Post by Mikedunford » Thu May 04, 2017 11:40 am

RoadScholar wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Sterngard Friegen wrote:I have read both versions a couple of times and I can't spot the added material. It's not my favorite Heinlein novel, either.

Yeah, the added stuff always struck me as more, not better or worse. I think the editor did the right thing with the version that was published, but once it became beloved, more is better.

My favorite would be The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Somehow it seems to be the quintessential Heinlein novel to me. It's got everything: revolution, politics, artificial intelligence, group marriages (can't be Heinlein without it), and the weaponization of the gravitational potential.
Yes! My favorite too. (Also)
Moon is a Harsh Mistress is definitely my favorite of his adult-audience novels, but I also love a lot of his young-adult novels - Space Cadet, Farmer in the Sky, and the Rolling Stones are probably my favorites from those.

But my all-time favorite Heinlein (as you might guess from another thread) is the short story "Green Hills of Earth." I'm not sure why - there's just something about it that captures me. That's also true for most of his Future History series - it's such a richly realized setting.


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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#107

Post by wavey davey » Thu May 04, 2017 11:58 am

Slartibartfast wrote:
Yeah, the added stuff always struck me as more, not better or worse. I think the editor did the right thing with the version that was published, but once it became beloved, more is better.

My favorite would be The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Somehow it seems to be the quintessential Heinlein novel to me. It's got everything: revolution, politics, artificial intelligence, group marriages (can't be Heinlein without it), and the weaponization of the gravitational potential.
The editor/publisher eventually admitted that it was a mistake to cut the original.



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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#108

Post by kate520 » Thu May 04, 2017 4:07 pm

I began my love affair with sci fi with Ray Bradbury and devoured all his stories. I loved S in a S Land the first time I read it. I totally grokked all of Heinlein back then.

But my second, adult reading of S in a S L was different.
I found misogyny that I didn't even recognize the first time through, let alone grok. Alsotoo, militarism and an overall conservative world view that didn't register on my first read. I Didn't have an author's worldview on my radar back then.

Am I way off base? Should I re-read? I must say Bradbury holds up much better.


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listeme
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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#109

Post by listeme » Thu May 04, 2017 4:12 pm

kate520 wrote:I began my love affair with sci fi with Ray Bradbury and devoured all his stories. I loved S in a S Land the first time I read it. I totally grokked all of Heinlein back then.

But my second, adult reading of S in a S L was different.
I found misogyny that I didn't even recognize the first time through, let alone grok. Alsotoo, militarism and an overall conservative world view that didn't register on my first read. I Didn't have an author's worldview on my radar back then.

Am I way off base? Should I re-read? I must say Bradbury holds up much better.
No, there's a ton of misogyny.

Most of our gods turn out to be terrible :crying:


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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#110

Post by Mikedunford » Thu May 04, 2017 4:29 pm

listeme wrote:
kate520 wrote:I began my love affair with sci fi with Ray Bradbury and devoured all his stories. I loved S in a S Land the first time I read it. I totally grokked all of Heinlein back then.

But my second, adult reading of S in a S L was different.
I found misogyny that I didn't even recognize the first time through, let alone grok. Alsotoo, militarism and an overall conservative world view that didn't register on my first read. I Didn't have an author's worldview on my radar back then.

Am I way off base? Should I re-read? I must say Bradbury holds up much better.
No, there's a ton of misogyny.

Most of our gods turn out to be terrible :crying:
Indeed.

And even some of the more appealing ones overall have some appalling views. I love James White's Sector General series, and especially its multiculturalism, pacifism, and idealism. But then there's the misogyny, particularly in the earlier volumes.


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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#111

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu May 04, 2017 4:33 pm

The Fair Witness wrote: Most of our gods turn out to be terrible.
Heinlein especially. Rugged individualism, militarism, bigotry, misogyny, other right wing ideas. For some reason, reading Heinlein, even at the age of 8, had little affect on my politics or my social outlook.

And yet, in his later years when I corresponded with him he was very friendly and helpful.



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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#112

Post by RoadScholar » Thu May 04, 2017 4:56 pm

It's long been an interesting question in science fiction whether the worst human traits will continue long into the future or whether we'll transcend them. Star Trek opted for egalitarian transcendence, Star Wars anticipated that conflict, misogyny, slavery etc. would still haunt us.

I don't remember thinking Heinlein was advocating bigotry vs spinning a story about a flawed man. But I was young. Maybe he did have a streak of Ayn Rand I didn't see.


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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#113

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu May 04, 2017 5:09 pm

Heinlein wrote a short story, I think after WW2, in which he used racial epithets towards Asians. It was pretty shocking by today's standards. There is this interesting commentary:
In truth, Heinlein’s shift to the right took place over a decade, from 1948 to 1957. In the early 1950s, the Heinleins travelled around the world. The writer was already a Malthusian and a eugenicist, but the trip greatly exacerbated his demographic despair and xenophobia. “The real problem of the Far East is not that so many of them are communists, but simply that there are so many of them,” he wrote in a 1954 travel book (posthumously published in 1992). Even space travel, Heinlein concluded, wouldn’t be able to open enough room to get rid of “them.” Heinlein treated overpopulation as a personal affront.

Heinlein had caught a bad case of the Cold War jitters in the late 1940s. He accused liberal Democratic friends, notably the director Fritz Lang, of being Stalinist stooges. With Heinlein's great talent for extrapolation, every East-West standoff seemed like the end of the world. “I do not think we have better than an even chance of living, as a nation, through the next five years,” he wrote an editor in 1957. The USSR's Sputnik launch in 1957 and Eisenhower’s moves toward a nuclear test ban the following year both unhinged Heinlein, who called Ike a “slimy faker.” By 1961 Heinlein concluded that even though it was a “fascist organization,” the John Birch Society was preferable to liberals and moderate conservatives.



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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#114

Post by Slartibartfast » Thu May 04, 2017 5:19 pm

Kate,

There's homophobia to go with the misogyny too. also. My ex-wife once loaned Stranger to a co-worker of hers who happened to be gay who pointed out several instances that neither she nor I had ever noticed. Unless you belong to all of the same demographics as Lazarus Long, odds are that something in Heinlein's writing will rub you the wrong way.

I read an enormous amount of Heinlein in my formative years and adopted much from his writing into my personal philosophy. I think that the reason why I could enjoy his stories, consider the issues he raised, and avoid picking up his prejudices is that he always did a very good job explaining the reasoning for the points he was making. That makes it very easy for someone who likes to consider the logical and rational underpinnings of things and stuff to examine his arguments in the context of my own assumptions and reasoning.

I think this is a feature of a scientific mindset. People who adopt it tend to make good arguments when they are right and bad arguments when they are wrong. Heinlein was a great writer because he told great stories and because he explained issues effectively, not because of his views on those issues.

RS,

I don't think Heinlein was advocating bigotry, just that there was a lot of bigotry that bled through in his writing. You don't have to look any farther than any of his female heroines to see what Kate was talking about. I think he was focused on how technology colored and influence the Star Wars v. Star Trek question, not which side would win in the end.


:sterngard: ,

Was the book you were talking about Fifth Column?


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nam-myoho-renge-kyo---Thomas Jefferson (quoting Slartibartfast)

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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#115

Post by kate520 » Thu May 04, 2017 5:28 pm

:shock:
I was not off base at all!


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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#116

Post by Sterngard Friegen » Thu May 04, 2017 6:50 pm

I recall a short story where a machine was developed that killed only people from Japan, whom Heinlein called "Japs" and other less kind names. I last read it maybe 15 years ago when I was going through the Heinlein books, other than those for children, for a third time. And it really rankled me.

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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#117

Post by Techno Luddite » Sat May 27, 2017 6:19 pm

Suranis wrote:When I do my monthly Cannibalism, I prefer Vegan Sacrifices. Virgin sacrifices are so medieval, you have to keep with the times.
Grass-fed?



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Re: Natural Person Definition-Body Politics and Corporate!!!

#118

Post by ZekeB » Sat May 27, 2017 10:28 pm

Techno Luddite wrote:Grass-fed?
I prefer the grass-fed varieties of the mid to late 60's and early to mid 70's myself.


Vím o prasatech hodně zajímavých věcí.

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