Spring forward.
To delete this message, click the X at top right.

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

Abandon reality, all ye who enter here. *Democracy*Under*Threat*

What will the jury decide?

Trump liable for rape; award of more than a million dollars
45
63%
Trump liable for rape; award of less than a million dollars
14
19%
Trump liable for rape; award of one dollar (it's possible!)
2
3%
Trump not liable for rape or assault
3
4%
Hung jury, which means mistrial and new trial later
8
11%
 
Total votes: 72

User avatar
John Thomas8
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:42 pm
Location: Central NC
Occupation: Tech Support

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#251

Post by John Thomas8 »

SuzieC wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 10:15 pm
p0rtia wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 7:26 pm
SuzieC wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 6:43 pm It doesn't matter whether any of us think we know whether she's telling the truth. The members of the jury are the only people who do matter.
I don't agree with that. I mean, obviously "only the jury's opinion matters" is true in this courtroom at this time, but the long-standing tradition in this country to demonize rape victims and the awareness brought about by the #metoo movement demand an understanding of Caroll's story. For me, the lack of political will to give a shit that men get away with sexual attacks from a pinch to rape and murder has always galled (and I know I'm not alone).

I've always thought that the odds favor some MAGA asshole holding out and hanging this jury in this case. I've found many of Caroll's statements in the past to be (as Sternie says) the sort of thing that trigger the misogynist response to rape victims--an excuse to let the guy off (the he said/she said fallacy). I was pleased to conclude that Caroll was really good on the stand, from what we have read. But am I hanging on this verdict? No.

The question of whether or not the jury will convict (with all due respect to Foggy) is a completely different question to who, hearing what we've heard about the players, thinks that she and her witnesses are lying.

I'm very interested in what folks following the trial think. Cause it matters.
I absolutely agree Portia. Many of Carroll's statements are the sort that misogynists can grab on to to deny that rape occurred. I think they are all normal statements from a woman that would want to go on with her life, especially against a famous man who is much more powerful than her. It is no wonder that she made many statements laughing at, and minimizing the rape. She was afraid of trump. Who wouldn't be.

It is well known that women deny and minimize their rapes. I did. I think we have talked about this before, at the time of the Kavanaugh hearings. As I recall, many of us let it all hang out at that time. It is because we have been made to believe it is our fault, somehow. Because if we came out publicly and talked about it, we would be treated like E. Jean Carroll.
You only have to look at clarence "I never heard I bribe I wouldn't take" thomas' confirmation hearing to know what Americans think of rape allegations. It's absolutely obscene.
User avatar
Phoenix520
Posts: 4149
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:20 pm
Verified:

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#252

Post by Phoenix520 »

:bighug: for Annrc
We did indeed discuss this. Yet #metoo seems like a distant memory

If tfg hadn’t been the one in the White House I wonder if #metoo could have made a bigger difference. Seems to me there was a lot of catharsis, not much change.
User avatar
MN-Skeptic
Posts: 2999
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:03 pm
Location: Twin Cities

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#253

Post by MN-Skeptic »

Foggy wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 6:35 pm MN-Skeptic, I think I'm going to suggest you add a poll to the first post in this thread, so we can speculate on the outcome of the case. Lots of us have been thinking it was a slam dunk, but Sterngard has now suggested otherwise (and he's good at this). I still think she's going to win, but to what degree? More than a million dollars? :think:
Good idea, but I have some other things going on right now so can't spend the time to learn how to do that. I would be delighted if you would edit my first post with an appropriate poll, though.
User avatar
Suranis
Posts: 5828
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:25 pm

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#254

Post by Suranis »

Phoenix520 wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:37 pm :bighug: for Annrc
We did indeed discuss this. Yet #metoo seems like a distant memory

If tfg hadn’t been the one in the White House I wonder if #metoo could have made a bigger difference. Seems to me there was a lot of catharsis, not much change.
MeToo got swallowed up because the only "right" allowed women was one where there is a billion dollar industry behind it - Abortion. As soon as that popped up as an issue MeToo was forgotten. There was no money behind Metoo, or money to be made. So fuck that.

It's almost like abortion was allowed to pop up in order to bury MeToo, and the "libs" fell for it. Curious thought, no?

Another part of the problem is that suddenly people started screaming about "Handmaidens" and equating that with Abortion, rather than a better match for them. Namely 15 year old girls who were (for example) brought to parties in the Playboy mansion to begin the process of being indoctrinated into becoming toys for rich old bastards, and all that being seen as perfectly acceptable.

I mean if you take the handmaiden image and replace the thing with a Burka, something that has the inconvenience of actually existing and which women are ACTUALLY suffering through and which is active in ACTUAL Theocratic Dictatorships where *cough* Abortion is allowed, suddenly you are dealing with people with money and oil and bombs and machetes, and it takes COURAGE to call them names.

Instead lets look at a nice program and enjoy those scenes of rare fertile women getting brainwashed, scream about an imaginary country which sprang up because most women became infertile, and forget about women in the real world who get raped and cant do anything because the Perp has 200 lawyers, and becasue you are in a society where this shit and worse is fine as long as you are rich. And then you can pretend you are going a good thing while chasing your tail and handing money to rich bastards.

'Mericuh.
Hic sunt dracones
User avatar
Lani
Posts: 2507
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:42 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#255

Post by Lani »

Well, that was interesting. Me too was awareness of a movement around the issue of sexual harassment and abuse of women in the workplace that grew to prominence in 2017 in response to news reporToo movement, awareness movement around the issue of sexual harassment and abuse of women in the workplace that grew to prominence in 2017 in response to news reports.
Image You can't wait until life isn't hard anymore before you decide to be happy.
User avatar
p0rtia
Posts: 4915
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:55 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#256

Post by p0rtia »

Lisa Rubin's thoughts on evidence in sexual assault cases, given the massive underreporting.

User avatar
Foggy
Dick Tater
Posts: 9554
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater/Space Cadet
Verified: as seen on qvc zombie apocalypse

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#257

Post by Foggy »

 ! Message from: Foggy
I added a poll, maybe not the greatest poll in history, probably not as good as MN-Skeptic would have done, but go ahead and vote anyway, if you care to do so.
Out from under. :thumbsup:
User avatar
RVInit
Posts: 3829
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:48 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#258

Post by RVInit »

I listened to quite a bit of the Amber Heard/Johnny Depp trial and because of that YouTube was offering me up all kinds of online pundits. The trial revealed pretty spectacularly that in fact Johnny Depp was the one who suffered physical abuse at the hands of Amber Heard. Heard attempted to attach her claims to the MeToo movement and because she turned out to be a lying sack of shit there are millions of people who listen to these online pundits who were only too happy to latch on to the "see, women lie about abuse all the time" bullshit.

And now we have Evan Rachel Wood turning out to be a huge liar as well, famously accusing Marilyn Manson, and unfortunately she also appears to be a lying sack of shit. These two very famous women, one a proven liar, and the other caught in mind boggling lies during her custody battle with Jamie Bell** don't help. Nobody needs to preach to the choir that two examples don't negate the thousands or millions of abused women, but the masses definitely seem to have no problem holding up one example of a lying bullshitter and thinking that proves that lots of women lie about abuse.

**
Off Topic
OMG, she went so far as to use the name of a real FBI agent and create a letter that claimed that she is a material witness in an investigation of an international star and her life and that of her son are in danger and that's why she needed to take her kid to another state and keep him away from his father. Along with other underhanded and questionable things she and her feminist activist lover (at the time) have done to try to get Manson arrested. Her now ex-lover, who has never met Manson, called the police to conduct a "wellness check" on Manson, who was home with his wife watching a movie. She did this right after Wood announced Manson was her abuser. This caused the police to rush to Manson's house, of course, Wood and her accomplice also called the media who sent helicopters to show the police "raiding" Manson's home when the police were really there to conduct a wellness check. Manson has never even personally met Wood's ex-lover who made this report that she hadn't heard from her "friend" in many days after he was accused of sexual abuse and she was afraid he may have done something to himself.

In truth at one point his home was raided after Wood and her accomplice created a fake email address using Manson's initials and birthdate (to make it appear as it was his real account). They used that account to do some sketchy stuff (visit child sex abuse sites) and then reported they had information about a pedophile named Brian Warner, AKA Marilyn Manson. So, yeah, at one point the police did raid Manson's house for real and took all his electronics, etc. Apparently they never found anything to show that he ever used that email address on any of his devices or network, so of course, he's never been arrested. That is the tip of the iceberg on Miss Wood, who again, is not doing any favors for women who really have been abused.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
--Colin Kaepernick
User avatar
Slim Cognito
Posts: 6552
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:15 am
Location: Too close to trump
Occupation: Hats. I do hats.
Verified:

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#259

Post by Slim Cognito »

RV , you are on fire today!
Pup Dennis in training to be a guide dog & given to a deserving vet. Thx! ImageImageImage x4
User avatar
RVInit
Posts: 3829
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:48 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#260

Post by RVInit »

Slim Cognito wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 8:53 am RV , you are on fire today!
The subject of people making false accusations really infuriates me. I am livid when these assholes make it impossible for real victims of abuse to be believed.

The Heard/Depp trial really bothered me. Johnny Depp suffered a very public loss of reputation to the extent where Disney made a public statement they would cut ties with him. He was very eloquent when he explained how deeply it cut him as a father to see his children get picked on at school because they had a "wife beater" for a father. It was the damage to his children that caused him to file his lawsuit against Heard for defamation.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
--Colin Kaepernick
Dave from down under
Posts: 3907
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:50 pm
Location: Down here!

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#261

Post by Dave from down under »

I’ve voted
Not what I hope will be the outcome based on Donnie being an abuser, but on the likelihood of someone excusing his behaviour regardless of his history
User avatar
RVInit
Posts: 3829
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:48 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#262

Post by RVInit »

Dave from down under wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 9:04 am I’ve voted
Not what I hope will be the outcome based on Donnie being an abuser, but on the likelihood of someone excusing his behaviour regardless of his history
Same here. I am expecting a hung jury, hard for me to believe that a Trump supporter did not make it onto the jury, and hard for me to believe a Trump supporter would be willing to consider anything other than Trump is innocent.

I live around Trump supporters and know only too well that he could shoot someone on 5th (or any other) avenue and not lose a single supporter.
There's a lot of things that need to change. One specifically? Police brutality.
--Colin Kaepernick
User avatar
p0rtia
Posts: 4915
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:55 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#263

Post by p0rtia »

Foggy wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 7:51 am I added a poll, maybe not the greatest poll in history, probably not as good as MN-Skeptic would have done, but go ahead and vote anyway, if you care to do so.
Hung jury/mistrial does not necessarily mean re-trying the case, does it? Since it's civil? Wouldn't that be up to to the plaintiff to decide? Quite a cost there, yes?
jemcanada2
Posts: 950
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:12 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#264

Post by jemcanada2 »

RVInit wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 9:02 am
Slim Cognito wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 8:53 am RV , you are on fire today!
The subject of people making false accusations really infuriates me. I am livid when these assholes make it impossible for real victims of abuse to be believed.

The Heard/Depp trial really bothered me. Johnny Depp suffered a very public loss of reputation to the extent where Disney made a public statement they would cut ties with him. He was very eloquent when he explained how deeply it cut him as a father to see his children get picked on at school because they had a "wife beater" for a father. It was the damage to his children that caused him to file his lawsuit against Heard for defamation.
:yeahthat: :yeahthat:

I was infuriated by the people who use it as an excuse not to believe any woman and the other side that insisted we had to believe Amber even after she had been proven to be an abusive liar.
User avatar
Foggy
Dick Tater
Posts: 9554
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater/Space Cadet
Verified: as seen on qvc zombie apocalypse

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#265

Post by Foggy »

p0rtia wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 9:16 am Hung jury/mistrial does not necessarily mean re-trying the case, does it? Since it's civil? Wouldn't that be up to to the plaintiff to decide? Quite a cost there, yes?
Yes. A hung jury is a minor disaster for Ms. Carroll, depending on what the jurors tell the media about what happened inside the jury room. If it was one obstreperous jerk, it's better than if the final vote was 7 - 5.

And I don't know about New York, but she may have to file a Motion for a New Trial, and Trump might be able to file an opposition brief, there's no point in wasting additional court resources, yadda yadda.

But I heard about a trial in Oregon where a bunch of obviously guilty people got a hung jury a few years back, so I included it as an option. :mrgreen:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
User avatar
p0rtia
Posts: 4915
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:55 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#266

Post by p0rtia »

Foggy wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 9:44 am
p0rtia wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 9:16 am Hung jury/mistrial does not necessarily mean re-trying the case, does it? Since it's civil? Wouldn't that be up to to the plaintiff to decide? Quite a cost there, yes?
Yes. A hung jury is a minor disaster for Ms. Carroll, depending on what the jurors tell the media about what happened inside the jury room. If it was one obstreperous jerk, it's better than if the final vote was 7 - 5.

And I don't know about New York, but she may have to file a Motion for a New Trial, and Trump might be able to file an opposition brief, there's no point in wasting additional court resources, yadda yadda.

But I heard about a trial in Oregon where a bunch of obviously guilty people got a hung jury a few years back, so I included it as an option. :mrgreen:
Thanks, Fogster! That's what I thought. Just to note that it's a 9 person jury. They selected 12, of which are alternates and will be excused just before deliberations. No one knows which three they are, but I am really hoping that the one dude who gets his news exclusively from Faux Gnus is one of them.

My all-time favorite movie is To Kill a Mockingbird (yeah, the movie made from that banned book), so I have some idea why juries get it wrong.
User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:07 am
Location: Maybelot
Verified: ✅✅

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#267

Post by Maybenaut »

About the poll: Not to pick nits, but…

Trump liable for rape? Nope. The complaint alleges battery, and describes a forcible rape, but the jury’s not asked to decide that.

Why does that matter? Well, the complaint alleges that Trump violated a bunch of criminal statutes when committing the assault, including rape (first and third degree), sexual abuse (first and third degree), sexual misconduct, and forcible touching. If, for example, the jury thinks he “only” groped her but did not have sex with her, I think** they could still find him liable for battery. The jury instructions on this issue will be interesting. Anyhoo, even if they think he raped her, the finding will be for battery because that’s what’s alleged in the complaint.

Also, the poll doesn’t say anything about defamation. I think it’s at least possible that the jury could find in Carroll’s favor on the battery count, and find in Trump’s favor on the defamation count. I think** she’s got a potential problem with damages. She says his calling her a liar got her fired from Elle. IIRC, the folks at Elle were a little annoyed when she went to another magazine to discuss the launch of her new book.

** IANACivL
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
Foggy
Dick Tater
Posts: 9554
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater/Space Cadet
Verified: as seen on qvc zombie apocalypse

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and WHO AGAIN?

#268

Post by Foggy »

SHE PICKED MAH NIT!

And rightly so. I allowed my prejudice against the defendant to influence the poll. :mrgreen:

Speaking of which, is the US of A still a defendant, like it says in the thread title? Do I need to change the poll to include the United States of America is liable for rape? :think:
Out from under. :thumbsup:
User avatar
Foggy
Dick Tater
Posts: 9554
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 am
Location: Fogbow HQ
Occupation: Dick Tater/Space Cadet
Verified: as seen on qvc zombie apocalypse

What we're doing about the poll

#269

Post by Foggy »

 ! Message from: Foggy
Okay, here's what I'll do:

I'll leave the poll as is for now, because as Maybenaut explains, a lot depends on the jury instructions. And the poll is more fun the way it is. :mrgreen:

I did, in creating the poll, make sure to check the little box that says you can always change your vote (although there's no way to find out who voted for which option). So depending on the instructions, I might change the poll, and then you can change your vote, if desired.
Out from under. :thumbsup:
User avatar
Reality Check
Posts: 2177
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:46 pm
Verified: ✅ Curmudgeon
Contact:

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#270

Post by Reality Check »

John Thomas8 wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:16 pm :snippity:
You only have to look at clarence "I never heard I bribe I wouldn't take" thomas' confirmation hearing to know what Americans think of rape allegations. It's absolutely obscene.
Thomas had one audience. He only had to convince enough older, white, male Republican Senators that it was OK to vote to confirm him, something they were overwhelmingly inclined to do anyway.
User avatar
John Thomas8
Posts: 5103
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:42 pm
Location: Central NC
Occupation: Tech Support

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#271

Post by John Thomas8 »

Reality Check wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:11 am
John Thomas8 wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:16 pm :snippity:
You only have to look at clarence "I never heard I bribe I wouldn't take" thomas' confirmation hearing to know what Americans think of rape allegations. It's absolutely obscene.
Thomas had one audience. He only had to convince enough older, white, male Republican Senators that it was OK to vote to confirm him, something they were overwhelmingly inclined to do anyway.
For sure. But nothing of any consequence has ever stuck to the mutt, I won't believe anything will until that changes.
User avatar
Maybenaut
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:07 am
Location: Maybelot
Verified: ✅✅

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#272

Post by Maybenaut »

Fair enough, Foggy. As I said, I can imagine a scenario where the jury finds Trump liable for battery but not defamation.

But I can’t imagine a scenario where they find him liable for defamation but not battery. I took one last look at the complaint, and although she says he made a number of defamatory statements, they all center on his claim that she was lying when she said he raped her.

But juries are weird, so you never know.
"Hey! We left this England place because it was bogus, and if we don't get some cool rules ourselves, pronto, we'll just be bogus too!" -- Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
p0rtia
Posts: 4915
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:55 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and WHO AGAIN?

#273

Post by p0rtia »

Foggy wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 9:57 am SHE PICKED MAH NIT!

And rightly so. I allowed my prejudice against the defendant to influence the poll. :mrgreen:

Speaking of which, is the US of A still a defendant, like it says in the thread title? Do I need to change the poll to include the United States of America is liable for rape? :think:
There are two cases (actually more, because the defamation case was blended with the battery case somewhere): Caroll 1 and Caroll 2. Caroll 2 was the one where the US of A is also a defendant, but it was delayed because, reasons (USA as defendant is under question; result in Caroll 1 will effect Caroll 2). So no USA in this current (Carroll 1) case. But maybe later. I'd say the title is okay.
User avatar
p0rtia
Posts: 4915
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:55 am

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America

#274

Post by p0rtia »

Reality Check wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 10:11 am
John Thomas8 wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 11:16 pm :snippity:
You only have to look at clarence "I never heard I bribe I wouldn't take" thomas' confirmation hearing to know what Americans think of rape allegations. It's absolutely obscene.
Thomas had one audience. He only had to convince enough older, white, male Republican Senators that it was OK to vote to confirm him, something they were overwhelmingly inclined to do anyway.
Ehem *Joe Biden* ehem.
Fiascoist
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2021 5:32 pm

E. Jean Carroll v. Donald J. Trump and United States of America (poll added!)

#275

Post by Fiascoist »

I voted for "one dollar" cuz reasons.
Big one being compromise by the jurors so they can get out of there and be the firstish to find a publisher and get their dough or go on network TV and sell the story. A defense verdict sells only to a small audience while any sort of fault verdict get money in the pocket. Plus tfg will appeal, appeal and appeal some more keeping it in the headlines. A defense verdict is gone tomorrow with yesterday's news and while only mentioned at rallies.
And as to the trial, I think I would have nibbled around the edges of the plaintiff and gone after the "vanity" issue. The line that pissed her off, something to the effect of "she's not my type" which she heard as "ugly". And civil preponderance, whole different story. More likely than not. So, give her something, agreement she was assaulted, but give tfg something, no money. Both sides get something and jury gets to rake in the dough.
Okay, I am jaded about all of this (including juries) and being honest, I really don't get good vibes about her. Do I think he did it, yep, because he likes the control and bullying but would she have had sex with him if he had asked, yes. Because he was an important dude and she appears shallow to me or at least, is being presented as shallow by the news media. However, I believe she testified well and came across honestly to me. (However, my opinion that she would would have had sex with him is irrelevant to the case, but just my personal opinion.)
I think it will be the other witnesses who make or break this case. I had never heard about the airplane lady. If those witnesses are believed, then maybe a big verdict. At least I hope so. He needs some comeuppance in this life.
Post Reply

Return to “The Big Lie & Aftermath of The Former Guy”