Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? #Birther

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bob
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#151

Post by bob » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:50 pm

"For completeness": CNN: Patti Solis Doyle: Clinton did not start birther movement:
Hillary Clinton's 2008 campaign manager dismissed as "absurd" Donald Trump's Monday night debate claim that she admitted a campaign ally pushed "birther" conspiracy rumors.

"It is absurd what Donald Trump just said," Patti Solis Doyle said minutes after the debate's end. "I never sent anyone to Kenya to look for his birth certificate."

Asked about his role in boosting and perpetuating birtherism earlier in the evening, Trump pointed to a CNN appearance from last week, when -- as he put it -- Solis Doyle "was on Wolf Blitzer saying that this happened. (Clinton confidant Sidney) Blumenthal sent McClatchy, highly respected reporter at McClatchy, to Kenya to find out about it. They were pressing it very hard."

But as Solis Doyle said during the post-debate panel -- and a transcript from September 16 confirms -- she made no such claim.

During her interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Solis Doyle flatly denied the campaign had any role in creating the conspiracy theory, instead recalling the firing of a volunteer for forwarding a chain email suggesting Obama was Muslim.


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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#152

Post by Fortinbras » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:35 am

Trump says he "made Obama give up his birth certificate". A lie. Obama made public the short form birth certificate in 2007 before he started his presidential campaign; it was printed (from the digitized computer data) by the Hawaii Health Dept on the green basketweave security paper that it adopted in response to a 2004 federal law. Under Hawaii law this short form was, legally, acceptable legal evidence as a birth certificate in replacement for the original "long form"; in fact, it was not possible, even for Obama himself, to obtain a copy of the long form under the laws and regs then applicable in Hawaii.

In 2007 {correction: 2011}, after much trouble from the birfers, the highest ranking people in the Hawaii Health Dept bent the rules for Pres. Obama and nobody else by bothering to look up the microfilm of the original handwritten doctor's long form and printing a copy of that, on the same green security paper, and sending it to Obama. Until that moment Obama didn't have that copy and didn't have a legal right to it.

Even so, when Obama had the long form posted on the internet a great many birfers (Arpaio and Trump included) persisted in suggesting that it was a fake (because the security paper background was doing its job by causing anomalous readings on Photoshop).

Even now Trump has admitted to his own Trump Chumps that he's not really convinced that the birth certificate is real but that he publicly said he was satisfied that Obama was born in the US just to eliminate that as a campaign issue.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#153

Post by dunstvangeet » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:12 am

Fortinbras wrote:Trump says he "made Obama give up his birth certificate". A lie. Obama made public the short form birth certificate in 2007 before he started his presidential campaign; it was printed (from the digitized computer data) by the Hawaii Health Dept on the green basketweave security paper that it adopted in response to a 2004 federal law. Under Hawaii law this short form was, legally, acceptable legal evidence as a birth certificate in replacement for the original "long form"; in fact, it was not possible, even for Obama himself, to obtain a copy of the long form under the laws and regs then applicable in Hawaii.

In 2007, after much trouble from the birfers, the highest ranking people in the Hawaii Health Dept bent the rules for Pres. Obama and nobody else by bothering to look up the microfilm of the original handwritten doctor's long form and printing a copy of that, on the same green security paper, and sending it to Obama. Until that moment Obama didn't have that copy and didn't have a legal right to it.

Even so, when Obama had the long form posted on the internet a great many birfers (Arpaio and Trump included) persisted in suggesting that it was a fake (because the security paper background was doing its job by causing anomalous readings on Photoshop).

Even now Trump has admitted to his own Trump Chumps that he's not really convinced that the birth certificate is real but that he publicly said he was satisfied that Obama was born in the US just to eliminate that as a campaign issue.
Little correction. He made it available in June of 2008, not 2007. The Birther movement didn't even start until March of 2008.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#154

Post by Plutodog » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:21 am

p0rtia wrote:
Slim Cognito wrote:
Off Topic
I know it's odd, but I keep trying to figure out how he got that weird mouth pucker. Looking at pix and video of him when he was younger, his facial expressions seemed normal enough. Then I think of all kinds of wild CTs, like botched plastic surgery or injections? Maybe a neurological thing? Seriously, put your mouth in that position and try to talk. It's very awkward and uncomfortable.
Off Topic
As you may recall, I did some research on body language last winter, because I find tRumP's mannerisms so disturbing. Some body language guru somewhere spoke about the protruding lips and the exaggerated eye rolls, facial expressions, and violent hand movements. She referred to it as screaming in terms of body language (the way text in all caps is perceived as screaming). She said it was also a way of conveying aggression. It's one of myriad ways he sucks up all the oxygen in a room and draws attention to his loathsome self. And you're right, he didn't used to do it.
I suspect Trump picked up some of his body language craft whilst working with Vince McMahon's wrestling circus.


The only good Bundy is an Al Bundy.

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#155

Post by Fortinbras » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:25 pm

Thanks, Duntsvang for the correction. Yes, my error in the date.

Obama was sent the long form from Hawaii in 2011. The Birfers started ragging him in 2008 and it only got worse after the election. It didn't even let up after the House passed a resolution that included the line that the President had been born in Hawaii; it didn't let up with two contemporary witnesses to his birth (one spoke to the obstetrician the day of his birth, the other was another mother giving birth the same time who remembers seeing baby Barack in the hospital nursery - she was Swedish and hadn't seen a black baby before); no testimony or evidence would shut those people up.
And Trump got in on the act by even questioning Obama's college credentials - as if a black man couldn't make it in the ivy league! And even after Obama made the long form birth certificate public, Trump was raising doubts about that. I remember because I once worked for the Passport Office in NYC where I had to scrutinize thousands of birth certificates from all over and I knew for sure that the Obama documents, long and short, were the real thing.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#156

Post by Suranis » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:36 pm

Trump said he finished it. Actually bortherism went on for a while after the 2012 elections.


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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#157

Post by esseff44 » Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:12 pm

Suranis wrote:Trump said he finished it. Actually bortherism went on for a while after the 2012 elections.
Birtherism hasn't stopped. It is still a belief held my a high percentage of Republicans and Trump leaning independents.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#158

Post by Orlylicious » Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:35 pm

Go Michelle!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bd46daPrp0U



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#159

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:02 am

A discussion with another guy (not John T. Reed) How am I being intellectually dishonest and do I have a reading comprehension problem?

" Him: It was Hiliary's camp that started the whole birther thing back in 08...Doesn't that make her a racist by extension based on the 'logic; we're hearing from the lefties today?


Me: http://www.bullspotting.com/the-secret-origins-of.../

The Secret Origins of Birtherism | Bullspotting
BULLSPOTTING.COM

http://www.washingtontimes.com/.../fact-checking-media.../

Him: Fact checking the media — yes, the Clinton machine did start the…
WASHINGTONTIMES.COM|BY KELLY RIDDELL


Me: I'm sure they looked into it. They never questioned his eligibility publicly.


Him Right...excuses for Hiliary doing it...but not for Trump. He's a "racist", but she isn't. [wink, nudge] ;)

Me: Let's say Hillary started it. What's your point?

Him: Point was already made several posts up...Try reading for completion *and* comprehension.

Me: Oh the old "I'm rubber you're glue" defense.

Him: No...the old "I'm a complete hypocrite" offense. AKA- "Do as I say, not as I do"

Me: From the article I posted: "The more common misconception is that rumors about Obama’s birth were first circulated during the 2008 Presidential primary by Hillary Clinton and her campaign. For instance, as Donald Trump tweeted in September 2015, three ...See More

Him: Nice...you quoted your own linked op-ed. That's brilliant! [wink, nudge]

And a great distraction from the fact that Hiliary participated in the birther schtick. Ultimately, it doesn't matter WHO started it, does it? No, it doesn't.

Me: When did she publicly question his eligibility?

Him: Splitting hairs now, eh? I must admit, you are a fantastic analog for Hiliary.

Me: Just answer the question.

Him: Just admit that if Trump is a racist for using the birther schtick, Hiliary is too...C'mon man, you can do it.

http://www.thepoliticalinsider.com/7-news-stories-2008.../

7 News Stories from 2008 that PROVE Hillary Started Obama…
THEPOLITICALINSIDER.COM

Me: Nothing there that questions his eligibility.

Him: Yer just gonna cling to that blind faith in Hiliary the same way I cling to my gunz and bible...well, my gunz anyway....aren't ya?

Me: Not faith. You didn't prove anything.

Him: I did actually...I proved that if Hiliary says Trump is a racist for using the birther thing, then she must be too.

I also proved that only someone who's intellectually dishonest, or worse - an outright liar- would not proclaim Hiliary just as racist as Trump, if they agree that the birther thing is inherently racist.

Me: No you didn't.

Him: I did...but I totally understand how your intellectual defense mechanisms won't let you accept it.

That's ok man. I understand. You've probably been a committed lefty all your life so that kind of mental crash and burn has gotta be tough.

Me: So someone who uses the schoolyard argument of "They started it,"is lecturing me about intellectual honesty?

Him: No, someone who's using the adult argument of...

"if a specific action makes one person guilty, then another person performing the exact same action must also be guilty."...See More

Me: I proved someone else started it. You refused to accept said proof.

Him Who started is completely irrelevant to Hiliary's accusation of racism just for *using* it...Are you really that obtuse?
No, you're not. What you are is trying desperately to contort the point away from Hiliary's self incriminating behavior....See More


Me: So you just moved the goalposts from who started it to who used it?

Him: Wth is your problem with reading comprehension anyway?

Every post I've made in this thread has been about Hiliary likening the use of the birther issue to racism.

Me: Your first comment said that Hillary started it. When I demonstrated that was not true you moved on to the idea that she promoted it. That's moving the goalposts. You have still yet to offer any proof she questioned his eligibility. Until you can do that I don't have to concede anything.

Him: Wow...the denial is strong in this one^^^
Why don't you go re-read that post one more time Einstein. I pretty clearly ALSO said it made her a racist too for using the exact same attack on Obama that Trump did.

Me: But you didn't prove that Clinton promoted the birther movement. That invalidates the whole argument.
Him Yes, I did...in fact I showed several instances where she did. I really don't care how much you try to twist out of it using nuance...She did, you;re wrong...or worse, lying...and none of your denials will change either of those points."



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#160

Post by MN-Skeptic » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:36 am

I was rather naive politically before the birther stuff arose. But after all these years of birtherdom and reading FreeRepublic, I realized a grand truth:

People believe what they want to believe.

And, because of that, birtherism will never die and sites like FreeRepublic and Breitbart will always have lots and lots of viewers. Conspiracies reinforce peoples' beliefs and they will cling to them in spite of solid proof. Shoot, Butterdezillion turned herself inside out to prove that Hawaii indirectly confirmed that Obama was NOT born in Hawaii (or something like that. Her logic hurt my brain.)


MAGA - Morons Are Governing America

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#161

Post by vic » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:38 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:A discussion with another guy (not John T. Reed) How am I being intellectually dishonest and do I have a reading comprehension problem?
The only problem I see is that you are trying to nail Jello to the wall.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#162

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:39 am

vic wrote:
DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:A discussion with another guy (not John T. Reed) How am I being intellectually dishonest and do I have a reading comprehension problem?
The only problem I see is that you are trying to nail Jello to the wall.
Maybe I just suck at this.

I also don't understand how I'm intellectually dishonest.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#163

Post by vic » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:41 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:
vic wrote:
DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:A discussion with another guy (not John T. Reed) How am I being intellectually dishonest and do I have a reading comprehension problem?
The only problem I see is that you are trying to nail Jello to the wall.
Maybe I just suck at this.
Why would you say that? Everyone sucks at nailing Jello to the wall.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#164

Post by bob » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:47 am

Him: Fact checking the media — yes, the Clinton machine did start the…
WASHINGTONTIMES.COM|BY KELLY RIDDELL
That "article" just rehashes the same faulty conclusions. It, like its precesseors, doesn't prove anything.

The intellectual-dishonesty criticism stems from conceding that Clinton birfed. But there's no evidence she did, so don't concede or hypothesize that she did.


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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#165

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:57 am

bob wrote:
Him: Fact checking the media — yes, the Clinton machine did start the…
WASHINGTONTIMES.COM|BY KELLY RIDDELL
That "article" just rehashes the same faulty conclusions. It, like its precesseors, doesn't prove anything.

The intellectual-dishonesty criticism stems from conceding that Clinton birfed. But there's no evidence she did, so don't concede or hypothesize that she did.

Is it a fair criticism of me in this case?



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#166

Post by bob » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:02 am

Entertaining the suggestion that both Trump and Clinton birfed concedes that it is just politics as usual.


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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#167

Post by dunstvangeet » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:09 am

Your not being intellectually dishonest. It's just something that they say when you confront them with facts and actual logic.

For instance, I had one alteration with a birther, who was into the conspiracy theory of Frank Marshall Davis is Barack Obama's real father. He got into the facts. I mentioned that model appeared in magazines published in 1958. Therefore any pictures taken were likely taken in 1958. At the time Stanley Ann Dunham was 15-years-old. I told him that therefore, either that woman is not Stanley Ann Dunham, or those pictures are Child Pornography.

He told me and I quote: "You give two ridiculous choices."

So, apparently stating that either that woman is Stanley Ann Dunham, or it's not Stanley Ann Dunham, is giving "two ridiculous choices".

Don't worry about it. If you have fun debating them, then debate them. Don't expect them to have any logical thought, or acknowledge your logic. Expect them to project their problems onto you, and never give an inch into you. It can be fun getting them into such a ridiculous argument when you realize that they'd much rather admit to viewing child porn, than give up the notion that a woman that you've proven cannot be Stanley Ann Dunham is not actually Stanley Ann Dunham.

If you don't have fun debating with birthers, then don't.

But don't taken anything that they say with any sort of authority. They're not being honest with you, or themselves.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#168

Post by bob » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:27 am

Exactly. At this point, no one has an open mind or is intectually curious. People will believe what they want, facts be damned.

Troll birthers for sport only; don't take anything personally.


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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#169

Post by Foggy » Thu Sep 29, 2016 6:57 am

1. Put a straw in the jello, close both ends of the straw.

2. Freeze the jello rock hard.

3. Open the ends of the straw, put a nail in it.

4. Nail the jello to the wall.

No charge for that, I do it for the children. :blink:


... and how does that make you feel?
What is it you are trying to say?
:think:

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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#170

Post by RoadScholar » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:23 am

That, or just nail up the box. 8-)


The bitterest truth is healthier than the sweetest lie.
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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#171

Post by Slim Cognito » Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:55 am

DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:
vic wrote:
DrIrvingFinegarten wrote:A discussion with another guy (not John T. Reed) How am I being intellectually dishonest and do I have a reading comprehension problem?
The only problem I see is that you are trying to nail Jello to the wall.
Maybe I just suck at this.

I also don't understand how I'm intellectually dishonest.
You're not. It's just words spilling out of a birfer's pie hole. You can't reason with unreasonable people. At some point, you have to shake your head and walk away. Yes, they're going to claim that as a victory and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. Learn to shake it off.

(Yeah, I know, easy for me to say, but it's something I had to learn, too. I lost too much sleep until I did.)


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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#172

Post by Suranis » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:12 am

He is accusing you of what he is - intellectually dishonest. He probably hasn't even read the links he is giving you


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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#173

Post by Orlylicious » Thu Sep 29, 2016 10:02 pm

Finegarten, Highly recommend reading this, it's helped me understand, they don't care, they just want to make mischief for the lulz
So what really happened? Was there a coordinated effort? The only correct answer is Who cares? Any answer other than Who cares? buys right into these trolls’ hands, and explains why they are this election cycle’s only clear winners so far.
How Internet Trolls Won the 2016 Presidential Election
By Jesse Singal September 16, 2016
http://nymag.com/selectall/2016/09/how- ... ction.html



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#174

Post by DrIrvingFinegarten » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:36 am

So yeah, I unfriended John T Reed.

After the first debate he said though Lester Holt is Republican, he's a "Democrat (sic) hack." Also said the same thing about James Comey.

By definition, a Republican cannot be a "Democrat hack."

That he cites Hannity, O'Reilly, Stossel and others on Fox News as credible sources pretty much says it all.

How did he get into West Point and Harvard Business School?
I'll admit I didn't go to as selective a college and I barely graduated, but still...

The thing is, as I said, before, it's probably a personality flaw of mine, but I don't take kindly to being told that a logical, informed, intellectually honest argument is none of those things. I never have. I got banned from another site because after someone referred to me as stupid for saying about a birther, "While I may not say you're racist, I don't want to hear you complain if somebody says you are racist." and acted like I was too stupid to know why that was stupid, I called him a POS.

I guess I have some anger management issues.



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Re: Trump Has Given Up On Birtherism -- Or Has He? Hardball 9/8-9/17/16

#175

Post by bob » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:47 pm

Capital Times: Deciding what's true: The rise of political fact-checking in American journalism:
The following is an excerpt from “Deciding What’s True: The Rise of Political Fact-Checking in American Journalism” (Columbia University Press), a book by Lucas Graves, an assistant professor in the University of Wisconsin-Madison’s School of Journalism and Mass Communication.

The persistent rumor that Barack Obama was not born in the United States may have begun with a fact-checking error. In 1991, according to one news report, a brochure put out by a literary agency included this mistake in the future president’s biography: “Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii.” Others have traced the rumor to a chain e-mail circulated by supporters of Hillary Clinton during the Democratic primary race in the spring of 2008. What is undisputed is that doubts only gained force after the Obama campaign tried to quell them by releasing a digital copy of the candidate's Hawaiian birth certificate, in June of 2008. As PolitiFact would write soon after, “then the firestorm started.” The document provoked a string of new questions: Why wasn’t it signed? Where was the embossed seal? Why was the certificate number blacked out? Shouldn’t there be creases, from folding?

By their own accounts, fact-checkers at FactCheck.org and PolitiFact went to unusual lengths to address rumors about the president’s real name, birthplace, and background. PolitiFact sought copies of every public record it could find on Barack Obama: his marriage certificate, driver’s license file, property records, and official attorney’s registration with the Supreme Court of Illinois. A reporter e-mailed the birth certificate released by the Obama campaign to Hawaii’s Department of Health; “it’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” a spokesman confirmed. A Hawaiian colleague produced her own birth certificate so the two could be compared. Nevertheless, the fact-checkers conceded that conspiracy theorists could always raise some new doubt. The resulting article, one of the most-viewed in PolitiFact’s history, concluded this way: “It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible ... But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what's reasonable has to take over.”

FactCheck.org went one step further, contriving to have two reporters visit the Chicago headquarters of the Obama campaign in August of 2008 to look at the candidate’s physical birth certificate. This was largely a matter of good fortune. A press contact for the campaign, who had resisted calls to release a new version of the certificate, finally relented and invited FactCheck.org to see the document; as it happened, two staffers were going to Chicago for a conference. The journalists held the document in their hands and felt the raised seal. They took pictures of the seal, of the signature from Hawaii’s registrar of vital statistics, and of the official certificate number, and posted these online in high resolution for readers to examine.
And to remain on topic:
A CNN segment from May 2012 featured a testy live exchange between anchor Wolf Blitzer and Donald Trump. “Donald, you and I have known each other for a long time, and I don’t understand why you’re doubling down on this birther issue after the state of Hawaii formally says this is the legitimate birth certificate,” Blitzer said. He did not cite the fact-checkers but ran through the evidence they and other journalists had compiled over five years of research, including 1961 birth announcements in the Honolulu Advertiser and the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. Trump countered that parents may run false birth announcements in hopes of securing citizenship for their children. “Donald, you’re beginning to sound a little ridiculous, I have to tell you,” Blitzer chided at one point. “Let me tell you something, I think you sound ridiculous,” Trump shot back.
H/t: Doc C.!


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