Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

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TexasFilly
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Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#1

Post by TexasFilly »

I'm starting this thread for discussion of hydroxychloroquine, Z-Paks, Erythromycin, Blood Pressure Meds, and other existing drugs that various people think might prevent, ameliorate or cure COVID-19. Maybe it will improve the filing system around here a bit. The main New Diseases thread is replete with discussions about these topics, and now they are repeating themselves.

Post away!
I love the poorly educated!!!

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#2

Post by TexasFilly »

I love the poorly educated!!!

Kevin McCarthy: Paul Ryan playing with a head injury -- Jon Lovett

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#3

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

Trump is just going to kill more people. And his sycophants are going to help him.

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#4

Post by TexasFilly »

Erin Burnett had a great interview tonight with a GW doctor who was Cheney's cardiologist. He was pissed as hell about Trump pushing the hydroychloroquine with "What do you have to lose?" His response: "Your life." "Your pulse."

He wasn't dismissing it entirely, but explained in clear, concise and compelling terms about how freaking dangerous Trump's "message" is.
I love the poorly educated!!!

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#5

Post by Turtle »

Word on the street is Laura Ingraham had a couple quacks on her show talking about the malaria drugs, then the next day she brought them to the White House where they pitched Trump on it. After that meeting is when he started really pushing this stuff.

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#6

Post by RTH10260 »

TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:37 pm
https:// twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1247352472152219648
Sahil Kapur @sahilkapur
“Health officials have been told to prioritize the anti-malaria drugs over other projects that scientists believe have more potential to fight the outbreak.” ⁦@ddiamond⁩ ⁦@nancook⁩ on the impact of Trump promoting an unproven drug. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/0 ... ine-170543

Trump’s ‘Hail Mary’ drug push rattles his health team
Some health officials see Trump’s promotion of hydroxychloroquine as an effort to make up time lost early in the coronavirus outbreak.

04:36 - 7 Apr 2020
Know what - the idj0t-in-command believes he will be receiving a Nobel prize for the discovery of a new antidote :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall:

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Suranis
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#7

Post by Suranis »

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1 ... 3468306433
Eric Feigl-Ding
@DrEricDing
🚨
Chloroquine #COVID19 trial discontinued in Sweden cuz of severe side effects- seizure and vision problems in patients. (Early clinical trial termination is strictly guided by data safety monitoring committees- stoppages are rare & big deal bad signs)
Gosh



Side effects - Death or feeling like death This shit is horrible

https://twitter.com/DrEricDing/status/1 ... 7049659397
Eric Feigl-Ding@DrEricDing
3) In addition, reported yesterday, there was a new French study that refuted the previous Gautret French study. Thus, we must be cautious with this drug. While there might be benefits, we have to consider if adverse risks outweigh benefits.
Eric Feigl-Ding@DrEricDing
New study on hydroxychloroquine and azithro. No real antiviral effects on #COVID19. Same dosing as the previous Gautret et al study from Marseille. This casts doubt if effects real or not. We need to slow down the rush, and need real randomized trial.
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#8

Post by Suranis »

https://twitter.com/PatrickSvitek/statu ... 98018?s=20
Patrick Svitek (@PatrickSvitek)
.@GovAbbott says 30 patients from Texas City nursing home who tested positive for #coronavirus are being treated with hydroxychloroquine. They're in second day of testing regimen that should last several days, Abbott says, promising future updates.
I predict that they will tout an 80% recovery rate in the 20 patients that did not develop massive side effects as proof that it works! MAGA!
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#9

Post by tek »

Don't worry, Navarro says it is safe and effective!

Narrator: we're doomed.
There's no way back
from there to here

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Danraft
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#10

Post by Danraft »

Just to point out that:
1.) Since this is a new disease (150 days) there isn't an FDA approved drug that has gone through randomized, stratified, double-blind studies.
Not one.

2.) There won't be one that has gone through that process for a couple of years.
One option is for a good patient (in ICU with Covid-19 experiencing severe respiratory problems) to wait for a bottle of FDA-approved medication to be poured over their tombstone.

3.) Another option is for a doctor to prescribe a medication for "off-label" use. The very title of this thread implies that is a bad idea. Yet, medical doctors are trained and empowered to do exactly this. On a case by case basis by doing a risk-assessment with the patient. Off-label prescriptions
HCQ for lupus was originally an off-label use for a malarial drug.
The benefit of off-label use is that, in general, the side effects are known and the drug has already gone through FDA safety evaluations.

4.) There are ethical considerations.
To establish the efficacy of a parachute, backpacks should be randomly assigned and neither the person doing the study, or the person jumping from the plane should know who has an actual parachute, who has king-sized bed sheets, or who has a garden gnome.
Then, (but only after this has been done with little tiny dose-appropriate "parachute" backpacks strapped onto mice) the study population (adjusted for age, sex, comorbidities, etc) should be dropped out of planes at varying heights-- 10 feet, 50 feet, 100 feet, etc (all told the identical phrase "Count slowly to 5 and then pull this cord")
Sounds legit. Ok. Ok. Yeah, but there is a point that you already know and agree with--in certain situations, protocols change.

5.) While this particular viral disease is new, it has similarity with other viral disease(s). In particular, MERS and SARS- two coronaviruses that use the same mode of entry (ACE2-receptors) and cause the same respiratory distress, cytokine storms, organ failure, and secondary bacterial infections of the lungs.
There have been clinical studies of antivirals, antibiotics (for the secondary infections), vaccines (both for the secondary infections like pneumonia vaccine and to the viral proteins), serum plasma use (both human and bovine), statins (that reduce the interstitial fluids), supplements (vitamin C and Zinc for example), anti-inflammatory medications and drugs that alter the host response cascade that causes organ failure, etc.
Some of the vaccines are being tried. As noted by Bill Gates, the results are unpredictable. So, he is setting up to mass produce a few of the top contenders.

6.) Many of those trials are actually off-label use of previously FDA approved medications. Some that look promising (like Remsidivir), are too difficult to mass produce for a pandemic. Many others have been granted clinical trials. Or, approved for compassionate use.

7.) With the potential mortality figures projected, an early emphasis on one that may turn out to be a loser ( but takes attention away from other candidates) is a problem.

8.) And, it's complex. An intervention may be appropriate and have success for one sub-population, and not another (based on many variables).
For instance, there is some discussion that HCQ needs the presence of Zinc for good results.

9.) FOR GOD'S SAKE....for those who think I am giving "authoritative" medical advise, etc. Kiss my grits. I spend very little of my day seeing "news" and have grown accustomed to using the feed generated here, by the many intelligent "newshounds", for the insight and humor I can't find elsewhere.

10.) AND, many of my statements here, because this isn't a scientific group of peers, are "cloud-gazing" or purely observational. I'm not a Jared Kushner or self-proclaimed genius with the answers to everything.
But, I am immersed, as we all are, in an area of topics, and have life experiences that lead me to certain thoughts that I casually share here.
Usually, I provide links and quotes when appropriate.

If I irritate you b/c I will NEVER jump on a wagon full of torches and pitchforks-- then put me on mute.

But, perhaps there is something interesting? I pretty much enjoy all your posts--and have never (to my recollection--i hope) denigrated or screamed in all-caps at anyone. BTW, getting tore into while in a discussion of ideas on its merits is far tougher and more fun. But hey, up to you.
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Sam the Centipede
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#11

Post by Sam the Centipede »

Of course you're right Dan; these are fast-moving times and the medical community must attempt to deliver present and future care as best it can.

The ethics issue is one that, as far as I am aware as an outsider, is well-understood in the medical community. Many drug trials have been abandoned early for the very good reasons that either (a) the trial drug proved ineffective or dangerous in some way, or (b) the trial drug proved to be very effective therefore it was unethical to continue to have an untreated control group, because the patients in that group were being deprived of effective care. (Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that you don't understand that, Dan!)

The (hydro)chloroquine thing is a major annoyance. If it were just another relevant drug that some doctors thought was worth trying with sound reasoning to support that suggestion, that would be fine. But (1) the science, such as it is, from Didier Raoult seems very dodgy according to respectable reviewers (not my field, so I can't pass judgement, but people who seem sound express severe doubt), and (2) it has acquired undue popularity amongst the woo merchants and fuckwits, encouraged by the Fuckwit-in-Chief. It's a distraction which we really don't need at the moment.

(Hydro)chloroquine also merits the application of an important scientific maxim, that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Repurposing an HIV or other antiviral to coronavirus has inherent plausibility: viruses vary widely but they also have similarities. Drugs that attack address some of the symptoms of Covid-19 have inherent plausibility. But repurposing a drug used to treat parasitic infections of the blood to treating viral infections of the lungs does not have inherent plausibility. Ok, some of the hypothesized action makes some sense, and this gut implausibility is not good enough reason to kick it into the long grass without looking at it. But the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" maxim definitely applies.

It's interesting to see that SARS-CoV-2 has been reported in domestic (cats, dogs) and zoo animals (tigers, lions) by anthroponotic transmission (cross-infection from humans, it's zoonotic from animals to humans, but you all knew that!). This virus clearly has catholic taste in hosts.

There have been suggestions that Dr. Fauci might be over-cautious on insisting on proper trials for certification of new drugs and potential vaccines. I don't have an opinion on that (because I haven't heard enough of him), but this might be one of those situations where we don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the possible. That said, extreme caution is appropriate before starting mass-medication of millions of people with a vaccine.

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#12

Post by RoadScholar »

President Donald Trump reportedly owns a stake in a company that produces hydroxychloroquine, the anti-malaria drug he has repeatedly touted as a coronavirus treatment even though his experts say there’s no strong evidence it works.

Trump “has a small personal financial interest” in Sanofi, the French drugmaker that makes Plaquenil, the brand-name version of hydroxychloroquine, The New York Times reported Monday.

In addition, Sanofi’s largest shareholders include a mutual fund company run by major Republican donor Ken Fisher, the paper said. Trump’s three family trusts, as of last year, each had investments in a mutual fund whose largest holding was Sanofi, according to the Times. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross also had ties to the drugmaker, the Times reported.

Trump’s “assertiveness” in promoting the drug contrary to the recommendation of top health experts “has raised questions about his motives,” the Times noted.

A chorus of Trump supporters with no medical expertise have backed the president’s urging of doctors to treat COVID-19 patients with the drug, including his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, and Fox News host Sean Hannity.

In the face of warnings from top infectious disease expert Dr. Anthony Fauci that the drug’s safety and effectiveness are uncertain in treating COVID-19, Trump has continued to laud its supposed benefits.

“What do you have to lose?” he asked at a press briefing this week urging those sick with the virus to take the drug.

Turns out plenty.

“There could be deaths,” American Medical Association President Dr. Patrice Harris said. “This is a new virus, and so we should not be promoting any medication or drug for any disease that has not been proven and approved by the FDA.”

Generic drugmakers also are gearing up to produce hydroxychloroquine pills. One of those companies was co-founded by Trump golfing buddy Chirag Patel, according to the Times.


But sure, it's just a matter of pitchforks and Trump derangement syndrome I guess. That'd be the only reason so many of us agree with the president of the AMA. But then we don't have stock in Sanofi or back Trump uncritically like some posters.
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Jeffrey
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#13

Post by Jeffrey »

If I understand Dans argument, he seems to be saying that because off label use is routine and there are no drugs that have been tested yet then using chloroquine is fine.

I don’t think that’s how it works. You can’t just go and stuff patients with any pill you find. You’d need some theoretical basis for thinking it might work or preliminary studies that indicate it might work. I haven’t seen an proposed theory for why HCQ would work so that strikes that. As to preliminary studies, from what I’ve read, that doesn’t exist yet either.

So yeah, Fauci is right, Trump is wrong.

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#14

Post by Atticus Finch »

RTH10260 wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:02 am
TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:37 pm
https:// twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1247352472152219648
Sahil Kapur @sahilkapur
“Health officials have been told to prioritize the anti-malaria drugs over other projects that scientists believe have more potential to fight the outbreak.” ⁦@ddiamond⁩ ⁦@nancook⁩ on the impact of Trump promoting an unproven drug. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/0 ... ine-170543

Trump’s ‘Hail Mary’ drug push rattles his health team
Some health officials see Trump’s promotion of hydroxychloroquine as an effort to make up time lost early in the coronavirus outbreak.

04:36 - 7 Apr 2020
Know what - the idj0t-in-command believes he will be receiving a Nobel prize for the discovery of a new antidote :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall: :brickwallsmall:
And the world better appreciate his herculean efforts in this endeavor or he will pout and take his toys home.

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#15

Post by Danraft »

Valid points. And, agreed on all of them. The Frontline observations are essential here.
EMRAPS tend to be long, and this one is as well, but hearing from the Frontline providers is yet another perspective. Since it is long, it may be good for headphones and leaf raking. This one touches on some of treatment possibilities as well.
Stay healthy.
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#16

Post by Foggy »

Jeffrey wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:33 am
If I understand Dans argument, he seems to be saying that because off label use is routine and there are no drugs that have been tested yet then using chloroquine is fine.
I don't see Danraft saying that people should definitely use chloroquine. As far as I can tell, and I'll admit I'm not familiar with a lot of medical jargon so I don't really study all his posts, he's just saying it needs to be studied. Does anyone seriously think he's Rudy Giuliani on the subject? If so, have you read Giuliani's Twitter feed? Danraft has given links to what he's reading so you can read it for yourselves. If he's expressing an opinion you think is wrong, you can say so with factual presentations and without personal attacks.

Here's my problem with "qualifications":

I don't have any kind of degree in history. I took World History and some other history courses in college, but my degrees and other certified areas of expertise are in international economics, law, technical writing, and computer network administration. On the other hand, I have more than a thousand books on history in my library, and I've read every single one of them. For more than 20 years, in my spare time, I studied history. I still think history is fascinating. I used to tell people the only thing new in the world is the history you don't know, and while I don't spend my spare time reading history as much any more, I still have a fairly vast fund of knowledge about human history. There was a time in my life when I could have been a history teacher in high school and done a very, very good job.

So what do you think? Am I qualified to offer some amateur opinions about history now and then, like I occasionally do?

Is it possible that people sometimes know a hell of a lot more about a topic than their academic degrees, or lack thereof, might show?

Is it possible that adults, even after college, might continue to pursue a lifetime of learning on their own? Have YOU ever learned something for which you don't have a formal academic degree?

If Danraft says something that's wrong, then please educate us to the correct facts and we'll be glad to read them. But personal attacks are not OK here on Fogbow.

You know, the guy who founded this community came back to the board yesterday. He quit because he was certain the birther movement would die out, and six years later it pretty much did. So he was back here teasing us because the birther movement is over now. I thought that was hilarious, because back in the day, we were getting about 300+ posts a day, admittedly mostly about the birther movement, and after 11 years in existence we are still getting more than 300 posts a day, but mostly on subjects other than the birther movement. Yeah, the birther movement dried up and blew away. We're still here, and we'll be here for the foreseeable future.

And the reason we're still here is because this is a pleasant place. This is a place where intelligent people can pleasantly exchange their views on a very wide variety of subjects, without being personally attacked. Ironically, it was the founder of this community who taught me that lesson, and I have tried very hard to carry it forward.

Now this country, and the world, are going through a crisis. We need to be supportive of one another to the greatest extent possible.

Please let's keep this a pleasant place, where we can exchange our views without personal attacks. That's a plea ... and a rule.
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#17

Post by Jeffrey »

Where did I attack him personally?

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#18

Post by Foggy »

You didn't, Jeffrey. I apologize, I used your post as a starting point and then unloaded my frustration over the past few days. A number of people have been complaining about Danraft, but you aren't really a violator.

Actually, when you first joined a number of people complained about you. :lol:

I think you're a very valuable member of the community, and I try to allow lots of widely variable opinions. :bighug:
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#19

Post by Notorial Dissent »

I have to say that I can't remember any incidences ever of any anti-bacterial/parasitoid ever being even remotely effective against a virus. I am having a really hard time seeing why now would be ANY different. Other than the obvious reasons I mean.
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#20

Post by Chilidog »

my take on it is that people are desperate.

this includes the medical community.

desperate people grasp at straws.

grifters take advantage of that.

that is why I view the issue with extreme skepticism.

My biggest issue with this drug is that it appears to me that the people at the greatest risk from dying from COVID-19 are those who are the most contraindicated for this drug. The rate of fatal side effects may be as high or higher for this group than the death rate from COVID-19.

For those who are in the 80% survival cohort, the risk of long term side effects from this drug are probably not worth it.

I am not a medical professional, but I have done risk assessments and i know how those work.

What is our level of acceptable risk going to be here?

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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#21

Post by fierceredpanda »

Chloroquine is also being hyped by noted snake-oil salesman Mehmet Oz. Other than maybe Deepak Chopra, I have trouble thinking of a prominent woo-peddler whose mere endorsement could make me highly confident that something doesn't actually work. If Dr. Oz went out and said that aspirin relieves headaches and the Pope is Catholic, I'd want to have a look at the scientific literature.
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#22

Post by MN-Skeptic »

Notorial Dissent wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:29 pm
I have to say that I can't remember any incidences ever of any anti-bacterial/parasitoid ever being even remotely effective against a virus. I am having a really hard time seeing why now would be ANY different. Other than the obvious reasons I mean.
From what I've seen, the issue comes later in the disease when your body's immune system is in overdrive and killing not only the virus but your own cells. Bacteria can take advantage of your weakened state and gang up with the virus. It's at that point when an anti-bacterial drug is necessary.
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#23

Post by Slim Cognito »

Although I did work in the medical field for almost 30 years, and am a pretty good source for general medical information, this stuff is waaaaaaay over my head. That said, here goes. Re blind, double blind, triple blind, slightly far-sighted studies, how does this work?

(disclaimer #2 - I'm pulling numbers out of the air because it's easier for me to frame. Not intended to be to-scale, for illustration purposes only)



Let's say 100 people have the virus and of those 100, 95 are expected to make a full recovery anyway. So you give 50 of them the anti-malaria drug and the other 50 a placebo and of the first 50, 48 recover and of the other 50, 47 recover. How can you tell the drug did any good vs people would have recovered anyway?
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#24

Post by Suranis »

I have zero issue with trials on CL or HCL.

I also have zero issues with trials of Vitamin C, even though it's been proven that Vit C has only a very slight effect on other Corona Viruses.

Do I think that either will be the big magic bullet that will save the world? No. But damn right people have to make sure. And there are trials going on with both.

What I have an issue with is people saying "oh well we should allow people to take these drugs just in case."

HCL and CL are very dangerous drugs that have a zillion side effects. People take them because they have to, and they dont enjoy the esperiance. But death is worse.

Everything Trump touches dies. If he is talking about something its the most stupid and wrong answer. And his badgering on about HCL has already killed people.

Read that again. People are DEAD because of Trump blathering about this. He has no evidence it even works. All he can say is "what do you have to lose?" *SMUG STRUT* He probably does not ven care. All he cares about is that its an answer he can give right now and he can go back golfing soon once people stop panicking and just use HCL. Case closed. And he is probably making money form it too.

There are Zero trials that have shown any indication HCL helps in any way. Maybe one will appear tomorrow. But right now, there is nothing. Not one single reason to think it works.

People are DEAD. And people are going to die because Trump has no iea what he is talking about and they cant get their medications.

Dead, people are.
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Re: Malaria Drugs, Antibiotics and Other COVID19 "Treatments"

#25

Post by Somerset »

Jeffrey wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:41 am
Where did I attack him personally?
You didn't Jeffrey, I did.

In another thread I said he was full of shit. That post was deleted. I didn't say that because he talks about things he doesn't have a degree in, I said it because he talks authoritatively about things he isn't an authority on. Foggy - you're an authority on history because it's your hobby and something you've worked to understand. When you discuss topics you understand with people who also have a deep understanding, there's a connection.

In Dan's case, he likes to make strong statements that make him sound knowledgable, then surround them with lots of buzzwords and technical jargon. But when discussed with people knowledgable about the topics, the connection doesn't happen. My sense is that he isn't really interested in his ideas being right or wrong, just that people see him as a knowledgable source of information. He reminds me of another poster here who desperately wants to be taken seriously by the world. So much in fact, that I suspect they're roommates not in the sense that they share a house, but share the same cranial space ;)

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