SENATE: impeachment trial.

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fierceredpanda
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by fierceredpanda »

Sam the Centipede wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:52 am
fierceredpanda wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:58 am Honestly, I'm not sure how you can actually square the legal doctrine of executive privilege existing at all with the concept of impeachment.
Is that really an issue? Executive privilege is merely an acknowledgement that any executive needs room to breathe without being micro-managed and harassed by Congress or courts. It also acknowledges that not everything is perfectly pretty in the real world. It's not supposed to be any sort of signficant immunity, is it?
No, it's not meant to be immunity - but there's really no legal precedent for that except US v. Nixon, which was in the context of a federal criminal prosecution. There isn't any black-letter law that says the President cannot invoke privilege in an impeachment proceeding, so here's how that hypothetical scenario probably plays out:

1) Senate subpoenas Bolton.
2) White House Counsel sends a letter to Bolton's attorney invoking privilege and commanding his client not to testify.
3) White House Counsel also sends a letter to the Senate advising them privilege is being invoked.
4) White House files suit in federal court to quash the subpoena just like McGahn, Mazars, and the Kupperman litigation.
5) Welcome to federal court. Take a number and your case will be disposed of in the order it was received. See you in two years.
6) Bolton doesn't testify, but gets to look to all the world like he really wanted to.
7) Trump is acquitted.
8) Bolton's book goes to #1 on the NYT bestseller list.
...
1763) The DC Circuit rules en banc in 2022 that actually executive privilege doesn't apply to impeachment trial subpoenas. SCOTUS denies certiorari. Conservatives tut-tut that future impeached Democratic presidents won't be able to hide behind privilege, and isn't that hunky-dory for the rule of law?
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

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Politico
Republicans face reckoning on impeachment witnesses

Some GOP senators are at odds over how to handle a key part of Trump's trial.


Republican Sen. Rand Paul offered a warning to his colleagues as they began debating whether to hear from witnesses like John Bolton in President Donald Trump’s imminent impeachment trial.

“Don’t think you can just vote for Bolton and not the witnesses Trump wants,” Paul told senators at a party lunch last week, according to two attendees and two people briefed on the meeting. He advised that incumbent senators’ conservative base would be enraged if vulnerable lawmakers were seen as undercutting Trump.

The blunt advice from Paul laid bare the GOP’s perilous task in handling Trump’s impeachment trial in an election year, all while the president delivers stage directions on his Twitter account. Trump over the weekend first requested that House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) and even Speaker Nancy Pelosi appear as witnesses, then argued a few hours later that the trial should be dismissed summarily before it begins.
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by fierceredpanda »

I'll add that an epigraph of the entire Trump Administration can be summed up in two words:

"Or what?"

The law says the President shall do this, or shall not do that. The response of this Administration - especially since Bill Barr took over the DOJ - has been to look at what shall and shall not be done, say, "Or what?" - and then immediately do whatever they wanted anyway. Emoluments, whistleblowers, disbursement of Congressionally appropriated funds, everything. It's all captured in the attitude of the words, "Or what?" Because, when the rubber meets the road, we've ultimately created an Executive Branch that is beyond accountability to anyone for anything.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by TexasFilly »

fierceredpanda wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:07 am
Sam the Centipede wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:52 am
fierceredpanda wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:58 am Honestly, I'm not sure how you can actually square the legal doctrine of executive privilege existing at all with the concept of impeachment.
Is that really an issue? Executive privilege is merely an acknowledgement that any executive needs room to breathe without being micro-managed and harassed by Congress or courts. It also acknowledges that not everything is perfectly pretty in the real world. It's not supposed to be any sort of signficant immunity, is it?
No, it's not meant to be immunity - but there's really no legal precedent for that except US v. Nixon, which was in the context of a federal criminal prosecution. There isn't any black-letter law that says the President cannot invoke privilege in an impeachment proceeding, so here's how that hypothetical scenario probably plays out:

1) Senate subpoenas Bolton.
2) White House Counsel sends a letter to Bolton's attorney invoking privilege and commanding his client not to testify.
3) White House Counsel also sends a letter to the Senate advising them privilege is being invoked.
4) White House files suit in federal court to quash the subpoena just like McGahn, Mazars, and the Kupperman litigation.
5) Welcome to federal court. Take a number and your case will be disposed of in the order it was received. See you in two years.
6) Bolton doesn't testify, but gets to look to all the world like he really wanted to.
7) Trump is acquitted.
8) Bolton's book goes to #1 on the NYT bestseller list.
...
1763) The DC Circuit rules en banc in 2022 that actually executive privilege doesn't apply to impeachment trial subpoenas. SCOTUS denies certiorari. Conservatives tut-tut that future impeached Democratic presidents won't be able to hide behind privilege, and isn't that hunky-dory for the rule of law?
This is how I see it too.
I love the poorly educated!!!

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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by bob »

The one caveat is that courts can push to the top of the pile cases that are time sensitive. SCOTUS, for example, ruled on Gore v. Bush within 40 days of the first lawsuit being filed in the trial court.

"Can," of course, is doing all the work. A court isn't obligated to expedite.
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Jeffrey »

fierceredpanda wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:07 am 6) Bolton doesn't testify, but gets to look to all the world like he really wanted to.
Probably a dumb question but can Bolton just show up and testify without a subpoena?
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Slim Cognito »

I’m waiting for Schiff to re-subpoena him so he can say, “wait, whut?”
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by fierceredpanda »

Jeffrey wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:00 pm
fierceredpanda wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:07 am 6) Bolton doesn't testify, but gets to look to all the world like he really wanted to.
Probably a dumb question but can Bolton just show up and testify without a subpoena?
No, the Senate won't hear testimony from anyone they don't summon to give said testimony.
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Chilidog »

4) White House files suit in federal court to quash the subpoena just like McGahn, Mazars, and the Kupperman litigation.
Wouldn't CJ Roberts have to rule on it in the Senate trial first?

And wouldn't that render any suit in a lower court moot?
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by bob »

Chilidog wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:47 pm
4) White House files suit in federal court to quash the subpoena just like McGahn, Mazars, and the Kupperman litigation.
Wouldn't CJ Roberts have to rule on it in the Senate trial first?

And wouldn't that render any suit in a lower court moot?
Short (WAG) answer: no and no.

The impeached president (or the person receiving the subpoena) could sue before the deadline indicated on the subpoena.

But even if the Chief qua impeachment trial judge made a ruling, no court would be bound by that ruling by virtue of it being the Chief who had ruled. (A judge, however, could easily decide to not rule, based on the separation-of-powers or political-question doctrines.)
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Volkonski »

Shimon Prokupecz
@ShimonPro
·
13m
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says the Senate impeachment trial will likely begin on Tuesday.On whether the motion to dismiss will be included in the organizing resolution, McConnell told reporters that there is "little or no sentiment" for this among Republican senators
ABC News
@ABC
·
4m
Sen. Mitch McConnell: "I think it’s certainly appropriate to point out that both sides would want to call witnesses that they wanted to hear from...I can't imagine that only the witnesses that our Democratic colleagues would want to call would be called.” http://abcn.ws/2NGlaDd
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by fierceredpanda »

Prediction: They're gonna call the whistleblower to testify, and then use his refusal to do so (on the basis that his identity is protected by federal law) as a justification to say Trump didn't obstruct the inquiry and Bolton doesn't have to testify. "We can't call the whistleblower because of whistleblower protection laws, you can't call Bolton or Mulvaney because of executive privilege, let's call the whole thing off!"
"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Turtle »

Except of course if the whistleblower is Bolton. That would probably rip a hole in this dimension.
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

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Impeachment trial security crackdown will limit Capitol press access

http://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/i ... ess-access
Capitol Police Chief Steven A. Sund and Senate Sergeant-at-Arms Michael Stenger will enact a plan that intends to protect senators and the chamber, but also suggests that credentialed reporters and photographers who senators interact with on a daily basis are considered a threat.

Additional security screening and limited movement within the Capitol for reporters are two issues that are drawing criticism from Capitol Hill media.

:snippity:

When the articles of impeachment are delivered to the Senate, a procession full of pomp and circumstance, just one video camera and no still photographers will be allowed to document the historic moment. No audio recording at all will be permitted, leaving radio reporters empty handed.

:snippity:

During the trial, a single press pen will be set up on the second floor of the Senate, where lawmakers enter and exit the chamber. Reporters will be confined to the pen, unable to move with senators. No movement will be allowed outside of the corrals and reporters and photographers will need to be escorted to and from the pen.
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Slim Cognito »

Another probably stupid question: How do they serve a subpoena on the whistleblower if they allegedly don't know who it is?
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Estiveo »

The whistleblower has an attorney.
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Kendra »

NEW: The House Intelligence, Oversight and Foreign Affairs Committees have transmitted additional evidence to be used as part of the Senate impeachment trial. The evidence provided includes phone records, as well as new docs and materials from Lev Parnas. https://bit.ly/2FNeI8U

"Parnas produced handwritten notes on stationery from the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Vienna, Austria that appear directly related to the President's scheme ... One hand-written note states: * get Zalensky [sic] to Annonce [sic] that the Biden case will Be Investigated"
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Jeffrey »

Oof.

I look forward to the "handwritten notes are hearsay" takes.
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Addie »

Cross-posting
Adding:
Speaker.gov: Pelosi Statement on Timing of Appointment of Impeachment Managers and Transmittal of Articles of Impeachment to Senate

January 14, 2020
Press Release
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Sterngard Friegen »

All these "firsts" feel like resume puffing to me. Just say what they did without getting into all the firsts. It's irrelevant to whether they can be good managers/prosecutors.
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Addie »

The Hill
Roberts, senators to be sworn in Thursday for impeachment trial

Chief Justice John Roberts and every senator will be sworn in as soon as Thursday for the soon-to-begin impeachment trial.

A Senate GOP leadership aide said on Wednesday that the House managers are expected to come to the chamber on Thursday to read the articles of impeachment against President Trump.

After that Chief Justice John Roberts is expected to be sworn in. He will then swear in all 100 senators, according to the aide.

The new details on what the first few days of the impeachment trial will look like comes after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) announced the seven House impeachment managers on Wednesday. The House is expected to vote later Wednesday to formally name the managers and transmit the two impeachment articles to the Senate.

The move will shift the impeachment fight to the Senate after a weeks-long delay amid a standoff between Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.).
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by RTH10260 »

I very much hope that the Republican leadership in the Senate is fully aware that the whole world is looking how the perform this trial. Banana Republic or not, that's their question!
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by neonzx »

McCarthy not happy with picks. Who was he expecting??
► Show Spoiler
Ben Siegel✔ @benyc
.@GOPLeader: "By selecting these particular batch of managers, the speaker has further proven she's not interested in winning the minds, the hearts, or even following the Constitution."
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

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neonzx wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:57 pm McCarthy not happy with picks. Who was he expecting??
► Show Spoiler
Ben Siegel✔ @benyc
.@GOPLeader: "By selecting these particular batch of managers, the speaker has further proven she's not interested in winning the minds, the hearts, or even following the Constitution."
What's his beef (besides typical grumbling)? How do these picks not follow the Constitution?
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Re: SENATE: impeachment trial.

Post by Slim Cognito »

They weren't wearing MAGAt hats at trump's rally last night.
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