Donald: Impeachment Watch

Post Reply
User avatar
Gregg
Posts: 4507
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:09 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
Occupation: We build cars

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#126

Post by Gregg »

Slim Cognito wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:13 am For simplicity’s sake, I propose the word “transcript” be taken figuratively in this matter. As opposed to “notes and recollections.”
Its a MEMCON, which is a real term, a memorandum of conversation, prepared after a contact. In the case of POTUS talking to another head of state, it would be 2 or more people actually transcribing the call in real time, and then afterwards those transcriptions compared to see if they agree and from them a summary prepared that is passed on to a small group of people, usually the ones who listened or participated in the call to see if any of them have any input, and all of this condensed into the MEMCON which is put into the files for preservation to comply with The Presidential Records Act. If you want to go see what Ike said in a phone call to Churchill in 1955, you go to the Eisenhower Library and look through the index for the MEMCONS for the one you want. (I long ago did some research there and know the procedure and the protocol of how they are prepared and archived) The document the WH released today is at the very least two iterations away from a transcript taken by a stenographer/court reporter, and by the time it was prepared there might have been as many as a dozen prior versions closer to the source of the document trail. It is my understanding that calls between heads of state are not recordered and if they are, the government is never going to admit it, for diplomatic reasons.


Honorary Commander, 699th Airborne Assault Dachshund Regiment
Deadly Sausage Dogs from the Sky
User avatar
SuzieC
Posts: 1407
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:27 pm
Location: Blue oasis in red state
Occupation: Attorney since 1977. Litigator for 33 years. For 10 years Admin Law Judge for 4 state agencies.

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#127

Post by SuzieC »

I don't think the "transcript" itself is a smoking gun, but as someone said, context is everything. Do we know for sure that Ukraine's Pres. knew that Trump had frozen their military aid?


User avatar
Gregg
Posts: 4507
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:09 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH USA
Occupation: We build cars

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#128

Post by Gregg »

At lower levels, MEMCONs are much less of a production. A mid level diplomat makes one every time he talks to another official person from outside their daily contacts or any discussion they feel needs to be noted for the files, and does them himself from memory as close to the actual event as possible. Comey making notes wehen he left Trump Tower after that briefing in 2016 was a MEMCON. Ones that POTUS generates are obviously, a bigger deal.


Honorary Commander, 699th Airborne Assault Dachshund Regiment
Deadly Sausage Dogs from the Sky
User avatar
Volkonski
Posts: 34001
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
Occupation: Retired Mechanical Engineer
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#129

Post by Volkonski »



Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
User avatar
Volkonski
Posts: 34001
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
Occupation: Retired Mechanical Engineer
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#130

Post by Volkonski »



Barr distancing himself from Trump?


Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
User avatar
Kendra
Posts: 18072
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:53 am

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#131

Post by Kendra »


On Fox News, White House spox @hogangidley45 retcons and claims that Trump ran "on this very issue" of holding up aid to Ukraine and therefore was just fulfilling a campaign promise by (temporarily) withholding it
I thought he ran on building the wall/Mexico would pay for it and the Muslim ban?


User avatar
Volkonski
Posts: 34001
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
Occupation: Retired Mechanical Engineer
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#132

Post by Volkonski »

MSNBC
@MSNBC
·
1m
LATEST: 211 of 235 House Democrats now support some type of action on impeachment.

Rep. Amash, an independent, also supports action on impeachment.

218 House votes are needed to impeach the president.


Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
User avatar
Suranis
Posts: 19038
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:04 am

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#133

Post by Suranis »

Script link


The difference between the Middle Ages, and the Age of the Internet, is that in the Middle Ages no-one thought the Earth was flat.
User avatar
Volkonski
Posts: 34001
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
Occupation: Retired Mechanical Engineer
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#134

Post by Volkonski »

ABC News
@ABC
·
5m
JUST IN: House Intelligence Chair Adam Schiff says Ukraine call transcript "reflect a conversation far more damning than I or many others had imagined."

"What those notes reflect is a classic mafia-like shakedown of a foreign leader." http://abcn.ws/2mBFRp8


Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
User avatar
pipistrelle
Posts: 11017
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:26 am

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#135

Post by pipistrelle »

I’m still on record as thinking there’s more.

(I’ll deny it later if not true.)


User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 3778
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III
Occupation: Criminal defense attorney - I am not your lawyer, and my posts do not constitute legal advice

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#136

Post by fierceredpanda »

pipistrelle wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:26 pm I’m still on record as thinking there’s more.

(I’ll deny it later if not true.)
There is, because the whistleblower complaint was about more than just the call.

Also, if I had my druthers, Trump would be impeached for the criminal stupidity of thinking this MEMCON is anything other than incredibly damaging evidence against him. At least Nixon had the good sense to know that the smoking gun tape would be the last nail in his coffin and fight all the way to SCOTUS before releasing it.


"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
AndyinPA
Posts: 6979
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:00 pm
Location: Pittsburgh PA

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#137

Post by AndyinPA »

Volkonski wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:17 pm
MSNBC
@MSNBC
·
1m
LATEST: 211 of 235 House Democrats now support some type of action on impeachment.

Rep. Amash, an independent, also supports action on impeachment.

218 House votes are needed to impeach the president.
So who’s going to be the last Democrat to sign on?


"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." -- Thomas Paine
User avatar
fierceredpanda
Posts: 3778
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:04 pm
Location: BAR Headquarters - Turn left past the picture of King George III
Occupation: Criminal defense attorney - I am not your lawyer, and my posts do not constitute legal advice

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#138

Post by fierceredpanda »

AndyinPA wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:31 pm So who’s going to be the last Democrat to sign on?
Tulsi Gabbard, because she's a sleeper cell for Trump and Putin.

I'm not joking.


"There's no play here. There's no angle. There's no champagne room. I'm not a miracle worker, I'm a janitor. The math on this is simple; the smaller the mess, the easier it is for me to clean up." -Michael Clayton

User avatar
Volkonski
Posts: 34001
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
Occupation: Retired Mechanical Engineer
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#139

Post by Volkonski »

Jennifer Bendery
@jbendery
·
23m
Replying to
@jbendery
Here's a screenshot of the White House asking House Democrats to please disregard the talking points on Trump/Ukraine they just emailed them
Image
EW
@e_warren
·
19m
Replying to
@jbendery
Is the White House incompetent or setting him up on purpose? They're probably as sick of him as the rest of us.


Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
Jeffrey
Posts: 2059
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#140

Post by Jeffrey »

This is probably a stupid question but is there any connection between this and Manafort or is it just coincidence that both involve Ukraine?


User avatar
Kendra
Posts: 18072
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:53 am

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#141

Post by Kendra »


So let’s get this straight:

Hunter Biden makes $50k a MONTH working for a Ukrainian company.

A Ukrainian prosecutor investigates the company.

Then Hunter’s dad, the Vice President, holds up $1 Billion in aid until the prosecutor is fired.

But somehow it’s Trump’s fault.


User avatar
Tiredretiredlawyer
Posts: 11390
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 2:56 pm
Location: Animal Planet
Occupation: Permanent probationary slave to 2 dogs, 1 cat, and 1 horse, and 4 granddogs and one grandcat.

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#142

Post by Tiredretiredlawyer »




@KevinMKruse
SENATE GOP FRET LEVEL:

Reports suggest Susan Collins has raised an eyebrow, while Mitt Romney is at half-grimace. The search to locate Ben Sasse continues with little success.

3,464
11:44 AM - Sep 25, 2019


"Why Iron-man and why not Fe-male? This joke is not for everyone." - Monde Mobsinner Bakaqana to The Science Nerds on Twitter.
User avatar
Kendra
Posts: 18072
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:53 am

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#143

Post by Kendra »


White House Counsel Pat Cipollone walked through Trump-Ukraine call transcript this a.m. with 6 US senators and 6 US House members, per
@LauraLitvan
.

Trump phoned in 30 minutes in, and argued there's “nothing” in there and news report about him raising Biden 8 times wasn’t true.


User avatar
RTH10260
Posts: 29949
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:52 am
Location: Near the Swiss Alps

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#144

Post by RTH10260 »

Kendra wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:01 pm https:// mobile.twitter.com/Jim_Jordan/status/1176896624385302528
So let’s get this straight:

Hunter Biden makes $50k a MONTH working for a Ukrainian company.

A Ukrainian prosecutor investigates the company.

Then Hunter’s dad, the Vice President, holds up $1 Billion in aid until the prosecutor is fired.

But somehow it’s Trump’s fault.
Biden the VP didn't hold back cause son was getting investigated but cause a key Ukranian prosecutor was well known in all circles to be a most corrupt guy. Nice try by the GOP once again to puff up a smoke screen. :blackeye:


User avatar
p0rtia
Posts: 4541
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:44 am
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#145

Post by p0rtia »

SuzieC wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:46 am I don't think the "transcript" itself is a smoking gun, but as someone said, context is everything. Do we know for sure that Ukraine's Pres. knew that Trump had frozen their military aid?
I think it's a smoking gun. In fact, I think if this isn't, there's no such thing as a smoking gun. A mob sonata in ABA form. A: "no reciprocity," B: "we need those weapons," A: "do me a favor" + investigate Bidens.


No matter where you go, there you are! :towel:
ImageImageImage
User avatar
Volkonski
Posts: 34001
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
Occupation: Retired Mechanical Engineer
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#146

Post by Volkonski »

Brad Simpson
@bradleyrsimpson
1/9 For the non-historians out there: I am a historian of US foreign policy who has read more documents like this than I can remember, so a few thoughts on the Trump MemCon.
1) This is not verbatim, as the document states. It is a sort of summary, which is very different.
12:38 PM · Sep 25, 2019·Twitter Web App

2/9 The references to Giuliani strongly suggest that Zelenskyy is familiar with his efforts over the preceding months to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. When reading documents like this, historians often assemble timelines to interpret references to people and events.

3/9 Before getting on phone calls like this, both Trump and Zelenskyy will have gotten briefing materials with talking points and what the other party wants to talk about, Congress will of course subpoena these. Zalenskyy's briefing materials would be super interesting here.

3.5/9 Zelensky's briefing materials would summarize the state of play of US econ and military assistance, diplomacy, etc. There was *no need* for Trump to specifically mention US mil aid. Zelensky knew the US was holding up military assistance, and why, and what he had to say.

4/5 After the call, officials at State, NSC, and other agencies would have circulated the MemCon to relevant officials whose job is to act on whatever was said. They will often annotate the memo, refer to previous meetings, cables, so everyone can follow the conversation.

5/ Congress can and must subpoena all the follow up documents from this call, because State, DOD, DOJ, and others will have created documents from this call that say "here's what we do now." This MemCon is one data point in a narrative, referring to many other relevant events.

5.5/9 When I and other historians at places like
@NSArchive
use the Freedom of Information Act to request documents related to Presidential conversations, we request all documents from weeks or months before and weeks or months after, because there is prep work and follow up.

6/9 We can read much into the tone, tenor, and other 'cues' in the memo. This is at the heart of what we do as historians - trying to 'read' an incomplete transcript and come to best interpretation of language used. The tone is of a supplicant (Zelenskyy) buttering the President.

7/9 Zelensky flatters Trump in ways I have never seen in such a conversation - mentioning he stayed at Trump's hotel, etc. Its almost certain he was briefed that this is the way to get on Trump's good side: kiss his ass, flatter, praise. This is a weird, weird thing to read.

8/9 Trump mentioning Giuliani repeatedly in the call is a enormous tell. Normally President will refer to Sect State, Ambassador, or cabinet officials as his point person on a policy issue. Trump mentions his personal lawyer, and Zelensky will have known exactly what this means.

9/9 The few paragraphs referring to Barr, Giuliani, Biden, etc. are, from a historian's perspective, very, very clear in their meaning. Take 100 historians, and 99 will see this document in the same way, even if we interpret it with great caution. This is very, very damning.
Brad Simpson
@bradleyrsimpson
·
20m
Here is an example, again from Clinton and Suharto in 1998. I did a quick read of a dozen Memcons of US Presidents meeting with Indonesian President Suharto - and there is not one with ellipses. Note takers generally don't include pauses. This is an edit. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu//dc.html?doc ... orandum-of


Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
User avatar
Turtle
Posts: 4179
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:27 pm
Occupation: SPACE FORCE COMMANDER

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#147

Post by Turtle »

fierceredpanda wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:31 pm
pipistrelle wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:26 pm I’m still on record as thinking there’s more.

(I’ll deny it later if not true.)
There is, because the whistleblower complaint was about more than just the call.

Also, if I had my druthers, Trump would be impeached for the criminal stupidity of thinking this MEMCON is anything other than incredibly damaging evidence against him. At least Nixon had the good sense to know that the smoking gun tape would be the last nail in his coffin and fight all the way to SCOTUS before releasing it.
I think he didn't have any intention of releasing it, he was just going to hold it up as something to fight over for the next week or so, then give whatever people he has left some time to build their narrative about the whistleblower (which they are still trying to do today). Some time yesterday they got wind of what was about to happen in the Senate, I'm guessing that's what caused the WH to panic more than usual.

At least some of the Trump people were ready for Pelosi to move forward on impeachment, they had campaign fundraising materials already prepared. But they most likely were expecting it to come from one of the committees investigating the 2016 stuff, ignoring subpoenas, etc. He has cover in the Senate for that, but trying to go around Congress on a whistleblower report in direct violation of the law, I have a feeling all of their contacts on the Hill were advising them hell no on that. Not only will they not help, but they showed if he crosses a certain line, there are things the Senate won't have his back on. While this is a very long way from voting him out, it moves the window from "not gonna happen" to "here is a case where there is a greater than 0 chance it could happen, so you'd better listen to us on this. "


User avatar
RVInit
Posts: 9959
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:31 pm

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#148

Post by RVInit »

And let's not forget that supposedly one of the things that alarmed the whistle blower was a promise that Trump made to a foreign leader. I haven't read the entire conversation (the portion that was released), but I don't hear anyone talking about a promise Trump made according to the released version of the call. So clearly either this isn't the phone call or event were the promise was made, or the promise is being left out of the MEMCOM of this call.

I am having a hard time keeping myself from getting exasperated at the TV and radio reporting today. It seems this release achieving it's intended objective, which is to pretend that not only is this one conversation the only issue, but also what was released is all their is of the conversation, neither of which is true.


"I know that human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
--- George W Bush

ImageImage
User avatar
Volkonski
Posts: 34001
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
Occupation: Retired Mechanical Engineer
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#149

Post by Volkonski »

Brandi Buchman
@BBuchman_CNS
·
9m
BREAKING: The House has voted 228-191 in favor of a non-binding resolution rebuking the Trump admin’s refusal to release the whistleblower complaint and condemning its activities directly involving the President Donald Trump and Ukraine. Story to come for
@CourthouseNews


Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
User avatar
Volkonski
Posts: 34001
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:44 pm
Location: Texoma and North Fork of Long Island
Occupation: Retired Mechanical Engineer
Contact:

Re: Donald: Impeachment Watch

#150

Post by Volkonski »

NBC News
@NBCNews
·
38m
Currently 213 Democratic representatives and one independent support some type of impeachment action.

There are 22 Democrats who do not, and of those 14 come from districts that President Trump won in 2016.


Image“If everyone fought for their own convictions there would be no war.”
― Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace
Post Reply

Return to “Impeachment”