Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#251

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:13 pm

If I'm reading it correctly, the most she's prepared to say is that she saw him standing in line outside a bedroom where a girl was being gang raped, maybe on more than one occasion. But she didn't call the cops and she didn't interfere and she later was gang raped herself when Kavanaugh was present (but he didn't participate). Have I got that right? And she can testify about his drinking. But so can lots of other people.

That's not much of a story, if she didn't see him doing anything but standing outside a bedroom door.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#252

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:19 pm

Welcome to 2018, where a witness who can testify she saw a SCOTUS pick standing in line outside a bedroom where a woman was being gang raped isn’t much of a story. :shock:

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#253

Post by much ado » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:21 pm

DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:19 pm
Welcome to 2018, where a witness who can testify she saw a SCOTUS pick standing in line outside a bedroom where a woman was being gang raped isn’t much of a story. :shock:
I think you have a point there.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#254

Post by Mr Pfister » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:31 pm

TexasFilly wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:30 am
One of the most important lessons I learned in my Trial Practices courses in law school, reinforced by countless CLE classes and invaluable in over 3 decades in the trenches is that a good trial lawyer has to know when to "shut up and sit down." This is the actual phrase, not me trying to insult anybody.

You fellows have made your legal points ad nauseum. The folks here are educated and intelligent and are free to consider what you've said and form their own opinions.

Continuing this is a perfect example of :deadhorse:

I'll end with something I've also learned after 3 decades of marriage: you don't always need to get in the last word.
:winner:

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#255

Post by Sluffy1 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:35 pm

That's not much of a story, if she didn't see him doing anything but standing outside a bedroom door.
Maybe not, but she could name names that do.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#256

Post by Sugar Magnolia » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:37 pm

Sluffy1 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:35 pm
That's not much of a story, if she didn't see him doing anything but standing outside a bedroom door.
Maybe not, but she could name names that do.
I'm sure there are others who could also. Even others without a bunch of baggage they can be smothered with.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#257

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:43 pm

DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:19 pm
Welcome to 2018, where a witness who can testify she saw a SCOTUS pick standing in line outside a bedroom where a woman was being gang raped isn’t much of a story. :shock:
Also true in any other year. How does she know that a woman was being gang raped if she didn't see inside the door? How can she prove he wasn't just talking to a friend and wasn't in the line to rape the woman? Under the rules of evidence, if she didn't see in the room, and if she didn't see him enter the room, she would never be allowed to testify as to what was happening in there.

I believe her story, and I think he participated in gang rapes, don't misunderstand. But I was a criminal defense attorney for a number of years, and this is a story that wouldn't hold up in a court.

I hope that, when she is properly interviewed, she has a lot more details that didn't make it into her affidavit.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#258

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:52 pm

I've seen a lot of shit at wild parties. I've been to parties where some Hell's Angels showed up. I've been to many parties where the cops came to break it up. Twice I've helped throw guys in a cold shower to revive them after they OD'ed on heroin and stopped breathing. I was a wild hippie, back in the day.

But I never saw a gang rape, and I never knew a woman who witnessed several gang rapes and hung around the people who did it long enough to get gang raped herself.

If you don't see that the story as I understand it has several aspects that are a little hinky ... well, I just hope I have part of the story wrong.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#259

Post by Dan1100 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:59 pm

Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:43 pm
DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:19 pm
Welcome to 2018, where a witness who can testify she saw a SCOTUS pick standing in line outside a bedroom where a woman was being gang raped isn’t much of a story. :shock:
Also true in any other year. How does she know that a woman was being gang raped if she didn't see inside the door? How can she prove he wasn't just talking to a friend and wasn't in the line to rape the woman? Under the rules of evidence, if she didn't see in the room, and if she didn't see him enter the room, she would never be allowed to testify as to what was happening in there.

I believe her story, and I think he participated in gang rapes, don't misunderstand. But I was a criminal defense attorney for a number of years, and this is a story that wouldn't hold up in a court.

I hope that, when she is properly interviewed, she has a lot more details that didn't make it into her affidavit.
That's what investigations are for. Find and interview the people who were there. Maybe she was paranoid and the reason they were lining up to go in there in there was to buy and do cocaine (a reasonable alternate hypothesis). Her affidavit is a lead which isn't going to be adequately followed up because [Republicans].
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#260

Post by DmitriNotPetra » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:01 pm

Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:43 pm
DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:19 pm
Welcome to 2018, where a witness who can testify she saw a SCOTUS pick standing in line outside a bedroom where a woman was being gang raped isn’t much of a story. :shock:
Also true in any other year. How does she know that a woman was being gang raped if she didn't see inside the door? How can she prove he wasn't just talking to a friend and wasn't in the line to rape the woman? Under the rules of evidence, if she didn't see in the room, and if she didn't see him enter the room, she would never be allowed to testify as to what was happening in there.
.
My point being, and you make it for me, that the standards of conduct for SCOTUS were at one point far higher than they are for a criminal conviction. SCOTUS hearings are supposed to be about if some is ethically, morally, and judicially fit for a lifetime appointment to one of the highest offices nationwide the land. When Democrats objected to Robert Bork it was over things like him not resigning over Watergate and his civil rights record, not whether he was there during the gang rape or whether he participated. It’s not illegal to pal around with Neo-Nazis just as it isn’t illegal to hang out where gang rapes occur, but it SHOULD and USED TO be evidence you were not fit for office.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#261

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:13 pm

I agree with all of that, DNP. But in a sane world, Kavanaugh would never have been nominated.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#262

Post by Dan1100 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:45 pm

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#263

Post by Mr Pfister » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:46 pm

Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:52 pm
... and I never knew a woman who witnessed several gang rapes and hung around the people who did it long enough to get gang raped herself.
What I saw was not a woman who hung around the people who did it long enough to get gang raped herself, I DID happen across a woman who was hanging around dirtbags that were drugging (roofies) random women long enough they did it to her one night. Sadly I was not able to catch what it was they were doing before they spikes my friends drink.

In retrospect, while I was tending her as she puked on the side of the road for an hour and a half straight (surprised no cops showed) it all fell into place.

The distracting touch that made me think "he's trying to take my wallet", the way the guy walked through the crowd on the floor doing that to others (but strangely not stealing anything). The number of young women who were spewing incredible distances (truly amazing) yet no stench of alcohol (as if they Kavan-alphed) and then I remembered - the girl - their "friend" who earlier in the night fell over, couldn't stand back up then laughingly yelled at same-dude saying "you fucker" as if she just figured out someone did something to her. Like spike her drink.

I buy it - this specific aspect of the story.

I disagree with it.
But I buy it.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#264

Post by neeneko » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:01 pm

Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:52 pm
But I never saw a gang rape, and I never knew a woman who witnessed several gang rapes and hung around the people who did it long enough to get gang raped herself.
Scary thing is, I actually do know a woman who had all of that, and she was not the only one in her group. I never understood her, but that was her world and the price she paid for being part of the social circles she wanted to be in.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#265

Post by woodworker » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:22 pm

BigSkip wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:08 pm
woodworker wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:15 pm
BigSkip wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:53 pm


Nice words. Wish you had followed them when you laid into me with name calling a while back.
linky please.
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p1001643
You attacked me and called me a troll based on your faulty assumption I was referring to something you said in a post. When I and another person linked to the post I was referring to you responded with silence.

So yeah, forgive me if I am not buying your BS.

It seems you are referring to my post about refusal to serve the military wherein I said:

"If by "someone" you mean me, feel free to specifically identify me by name -- I am a big (and those who have met me IRL will attest to the big part) boy. And I am assuming it is me because I have not seen any comments prior to yours saying it was okay to refuse service to the military. However, if you are going to comment on my post, then I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD QUOTE THE GODDAMNED POST AND DO IT ACCURATELY. Don't resort to RWNJ troll-like behavior.

if you read my comment, I didn't say refusing the military would be fine -- I said that if I knew the individual was directly involved in setting up internment camps for children, then I would refuse service to that individual. And if you read my comment, then it is obvious that I consider any order given to establish such camps to be an illegal order, which an officer would have a duty to refuse."

I didn't say you were a troll, I said don't act like a troll. That distinction may be BS to you, but to me it is not. You just accused me above of not responding to the later posts where you, and another poster, said your comment was not addressed to me. After reading that I dropped the issue. I failed, however, to realize at that immediate moment that your comment about not being addressed to me required an IMMEDIATE FUCKING GENUFLECTION AND APOLOGY. Please forgive that unforgiveable breach of etiquette on my part -- I just don't know how careless I must have been to not properly admit my grievous error and prostrate myself before you. But, I am human and therefor fallible, so, in order to ensure that I never offend you again by inadequately and/or inappropriately respond to you and that I never offend you again by recognizing the superior spot you occupy in the celestial firmament, I suggest that you skip reading all of my posts in future.

And apparently you didn't read my post carefully. As I said there, I have no problem (subject to our Dick Tator's rules) calling an asshole an asshole.

Woodworker (aka Howard Appel)

PS: I stand by my comment above and have seen nothing in any of your subsequent posts to change my opinion of you and your behavior.

PPS: FRP, keep up the good work.

Edited to delete incorrect reference.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#266

Post by woodworker » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:23 pm

Mikedunford wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:01 am
I don't think anyone has questioned whether Avenatti has done harm to the Trump Organization/Trump/Cohen, although some of us have questioned the amount of actual harm. I think the criticism has been more over whether the harm he's caused Trump excuses the unnecessary risks (eg SLAPP penalties) he's exposed his clients to, the occasionally suboptimal quality of his legal work, and the reputational harm to the legal profession.

As far as I can tell, the lawyers here have always critiqued legal work, and the critiques have been both unsparing and even-handed. We've critiqued the utterly crappy legal work of the birther lawyers and the incomprehensible filings of sovcits, but we've also given praise when due, even to those not on our 'side' of any particular case. (For example, the exemplary work done by Lisa Hay in her defense of the Bundy Buffoon Brigade.) We've also not spared lawyers on our side from critiques before. (The work of the prosecutors in the Bundy case in Arizona got some heat.) Even the legal work believed to have been submitted by lawyers affiliated with this site wasn't spared, with things like typos and inadvertent double-negatives getting pointed out in public.

That's something that's benefitted me tremendously over the last several years. And it's a bit disconcerting to hear people suggest that it would be good to back off critiques of someone's legal work because they're on the right side.

:like: :yeah:
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#267

Post by woodworker » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:29 pm

Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:43 pm
DmitriNotPetra wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:19 pm
Welcome to 2018, where a witness who can testify she saw a SCOTUS pick standing in line outside a bedroom where a woman was being gang raped isn’t much of a story. :shock:
Also true in any other year. How does she know that a woman was being gang raped if she didn't see inside the door? How can she prove he wasn't just talking to a friend and wasn't in the line to rape the woman? Under the rules of evidence, if she didn't see in the room, and if she didn't see him enter the room, she would never be allowed to testify as to what was happening in there.

I believe her story, and I think he participated in gang rapes, don't misunderstand. But I was a criminal defense attorney for a number of years, and this is a story that wouldn't hold up in a court.

I hope that, when she is properly interviewed, she has a lot more details that didn't make it into her affidavit.
Foggy, I have five sisters and I would hate to see you make that argument to them. Also, the confirmation is not a trial and the rules of evidence don't apply. Aside from the requisite legal qualifications, the confirmation is intended to examine a nominee's character, and the evidence that has been proffered goes directly to Kavanaugh's character.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#268

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:35 pm

In fairness, the engineers here have been unsparing in criticizing some incidents of really bad engineering, from which I've learned quite a bit. I think all good professional people are protective of their professions and tend to be harsh towards those who might give their field of expertise a bad name.

That's just what living in a reality-based community is all about. <-preposition, yay!
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#269

Post by Foggy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:41 pm

Woodworker, I always liked you. Don't send your five sisters after me, I beg you. :eek2:

Yeah, it's not a trial. Anyway, ol' Wifehorn just yelled at me that Ms. Swetnick is on the Tee Vee with Ari Melber right now. Maybe she'll have more details or a little more cohesive account of what she witnessed. There's no dispute that she has all those security clearances, is there? I don't even suggest that she's not credible, because I believe the women. But I'd like to hear a complete story from her, because what I've heard so far raises a few questions.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#270

Post by woodworker » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:51 pm

Foggy wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:41 pm
Woodworker, I always liked you. Don't send your five sisters after me, I beg you. :eek2:

Yeah, it's not a trial. Anyway, ol' Wifehorn just yelled at me that Ms. Swetnick is on the Tee Vee with Ari Melber right now. Maybe she'll have more details or a little more cohesive account of what she witnessed. There's no dispute that she has all those security clearances, is there? I don't even suggest that she's not credible, because I believe the women. But I'd like to hear a complete story from her, because what I've heard so far raises a few questions.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Ave

#271

Post by TollandRCR » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:13 pm

I think it improper to call upon the criteria of the criminal courtroom to assess what both women and men are saying about Brett Kavanaugh’s behavior in HS and Yale. That is partly because I agree that the standards for a SCOTUS associate justice are higher than elsewhere.

Not only are they higher; they are different. Questions about character, fairness, and temperament arise in a criminal trial in the sentencing stage, if then. Those questions are fundamental in a SCOTUS confirmation process.

The very fact of drunkenness tells us something about those questions. There is no doubt that Kavanaugh sometimes or often over-indulged. I know alcoholism is a disease. Do we want that disease in an Associate Justice? I have not heard Kavanaugh explain how he recovered. Kavanaugh may not be an alcoholic, but he could still be a problem drinker. See Slate, Jessica Francis Kane, You Don’t Have to Be a Person With Alcoholism to Be a Problem Drinker.

It also bothers me that there are women who recall being afraid of Kavanaugh. Sure, we would like to know firm details of any transgressions. However, the “assistant” prosecutor was looking for details to evaluate whether Kavanaugh could be prosecuted. I do not think that is the right question.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#272

Post by BigSkip » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:49 pm

woodworker wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:22 pm
BigSkip wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 12:08 pm
woodworker wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:15 pm


linky please.
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p1001643
You attacked me and called me a troll based on your faulty assumption I was referring to something you said in a post. When I and another person linked to the post I was referring to you responded with silence.

So yeah, forgive me if I am not buying your BS.

It seems you are referring to my post about refusal to serve the military wherein I said:

"If by "someone" you mean me, feel free to specifically identify me by name -- I am a big (and those who have met me IRL will attest to the big part) boy. And I am assuming it is me because I have not seen any comments prior to yours saying it was okay to refuse service to the military. However, if you are going to comment on my post, then I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT IF YOU WOULD QUOTE THE GODDAMNED POST AND DO IT ACCURATELY. Don't resort to RWNJ troll-like behavior.

if you read my comment, I didn't say refusing the military would be fine -- I said that if I knew the individual was directly involved in setting up internment camps for children, then I would refuse service to that individual. And if you read my comment, then it is obvious that I consider any order given to establish such camps to be an illegal order, which an officer would have a duty to refuse."

I didn't say you were a troll, I said don't act like a troll. That distinction may be BS to you, but to me it is not. You just accused me above of not responding to the later posts where you, and another poster, said your comment was not addressed to me. After reading that I dropped the issue. I failed, however, to realize at that immediate moment that your comment about not being addressed to me required an IMMEDIATE FUCKING GENUFLECTION AND APOLOGY. Please forgive that unforgiveable breach of etiquette on my part -- I just don't know how careless I must have been to not properly admit my grievous error and prostrate myself before you. But, I am human and therefor fallible, so, in order to ensure that I never offend you again by inadequately and/or inappropriately respond to you and that I never offend you again by recognizing the superior spot you occupy in the celestial firmament, I suggest that you skip reading all of my posts in future.

And apparently you didn't read my post carefully. As I said there, I have no problem (subject to our Dick Tator's rules) calling an asshole an asshole.

Woodworker (aka Howard Appel)

PS: I stand by my comment above and have seen nothing in any of your subsequent posts to change my opinion of you and your behavior.

PPS: FRP, keep up the good work.

Edited to delete incorrect reference.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#273

Post by kate520 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:21 pm

Take this feud somewhere else, please. PMs are your ( and our) friend.
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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#274

Post by poplove » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:23 am

kate520 wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:21 pm
Take this feud somewhere else, please. PMs are your ( and our) friend.
Yes.

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Re: Kavanaugh hearings: Avenatti casually tossing bombs

#275

Post by Orlylicious » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:25 am




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